scale. But it is not mandatory that a man make a written contract at all. That section merely advises the member that he should make a written contract, and that if he wants us to stand back of that contract and help him enforce it, he must have it approved by the board of directors; but we don't say he has to.

Mr. MCCANN. O. K., sir. Pardon me. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I had forgotten about the number of witnesses we have subpenaed to be here at 10 o'clock this morning that we are not going to reach today.

Mr. KEARNS. Let's finish with this witness and then we can take care of that.

Mr. MCCANN. You want me to finish with this witness, first?
Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. All right. Let us put in the record at this point section 4 (b). This section has been called to my attention by Mr. Bagley, their counsel, and he thinks it will explain more fully your statement.

If a written contract cannot be obtained, a contractor may accept an engagement verbally, but report all the facts and conditions thereof to the secretary within 48 hours after accepting the same. To be considered valid, a verbal contract must be approved by the board of directors. The board shall in all cases have power and authority to determine whether a contract shall or shall not be in writing.

So that, after all, the last sentence gives the board the ultimate authority.

Mr. PAUL. May I point out that that is an authority that has never been exercised within my tenure of office. Some of those bylaws have been on our books for a very, very many years. In an organization of our kind an attempt to change our bylaws and bring them up to date, to modern usage, is a practical impossibility, to call a meeting of our membership for that purpose. For instance, that thing in there that says we must tack the contract on a bulletin board for our members' perusal, that just isn't done. It would be impossible. There are hundreds of contracts. We would have to have a bulletin board the size of this room.

Mr. MCCANN. As a matter of fact, I notice from your minute book the monthly meetings of your organization never have a quorum so they can function, do they?

Mr. PAUL. They do have a quorum occasionally. We have had two or three meetings this year at which there was a quorum. Mr. MCCANN. What constitutes a quorum?

Mr. PAUL. For general business, 150. For legislative action it takes a quorum of 300. The way that we get a meeting is when there is something of vital importance to our members that comes up-something that affects their pocketbook, let us say-then they come to make a quorum. When things go along all right and they are getting their pay and the employment conditions are reasonably good, they just don't attend meetings.

Mr. MCCANN. Now, Mr. Paul, I only have two or three more questions to ask you and we will excuse you.

Have you heard anyone in your organization, among your board or among your officers, talk about coercing or intimidating Mr. Earl Carroll by reason of the fact he went to Sacramento or Washington?

66874-47-vol. 1-29

Mr. MCCANN. You were the executive committee of the bargaining committee, as I get the picture?

Mr. BOREN. NO; we were not the executive committee.
Mr. MCCANN. What was your title, if any?

Mr. BOREN. We had no title. We were there as staff men, in a purely advisory capacity to the principals from all of the companies. If the musicians made a demand that they wanted X number of dollars to perform for recording, we told them how much that would cost. If they demanded certain rest periods, we told them how that would affect our operations.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, you were technical advisers to the production people in the preparation of this contract?

Mr. BOREN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. What was the function of Mr. Zorn?

Mr. BOREN. Mr. Zorn was an attorney, to aid in the final drafting of the contract.

Mr. MCCANN. Did he sit in at all times during the negotiations?
Mr. BOREN. He did not.

Mr. MCCANN. Did he sit in at any time during the negotiations? Mr. BOREN. He only sat in when we were finally drafting the contract. At the general negotiations Mr. Zorn did not sit in.

Mr. MCCANN. At the general negotiations he was not there?
Mr. BOREN. No.

Mr. MCCANN. Now, Mr. Boren, will you tell us in your own way and as you best remember exactly when and how the matter of television came up an what the conversations were back and forth—give us the story on that subject?

Mr. BOREN. Well, we took the demands of the musicians in numerical order. As I remember, there were something like ninety-some-odd demands. They were very impressive demands, and as a subcommittee the three of us analyzed those demands.

When we got to the matter of policy questions, like television, or anything else, we had no advice or recommendations, and as these things or these demands were presented by the musicians' union and discussed between the respective parties, and we got down to the television clause, because it was a policy decision, in the first part of the negotiations we would say we will take that up later, and as we came closer and closer to agreement on hours and working conditions, the matter of television came up, and my principal, whom I was representing, Mr. Balaban, had very strenuous objections to the television clause, that his company did not want to be a party to having any restrictions upon television, particularly because our company was interested in television and conducts an experimental station out here in Los Angeles now. They didn't at that time-were not connected with the company.

Vigorous opposition at times by Mr. Schenck also was expressed against agreeing to any such harsh restrictions as the musicians' union were demanding.

Now this clause was kept, let me say in that respect, was kept in suspense, and when we came to the final drafting of the contract in which Mr. Zorn at that time was a party as an attorney, and the subcommittee, we all had notes, preliminary notes of what we had agreed upon, how much we would pay per hour, how many rest periods we were going to have and what bonuses for night work, et cetera, and

dealing and collective bargaining agreements. When it came to the television clause, at that time we were still in an impasse, for this was not up to our committee to draft the television clause or anything else, and it was referred actually to the principals. By the principals, I mean the presidents of our companies.

Mr. MCCANN. The presidents of all of these major companies?
Mr. BOREN. That is right-each individual company.

Mr. MCCANN. Yes.

Mr. BOREN. That is right.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, you as a committee, and I refer now to Charles Boren, Fred Meyer, and Milton Schwartzwald

Mr. BOREN. Right.

Mr. MCCANN. You made no determination at all with respect to television?

Mr. BOREN. No; we did not.

Mr. MCCANN. And while you had prepared data on all of these other paragraphs, you simply referred the television clause 100 percent to the presidents of the movie companies?

Mr. BOREN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Was there any statement made in your presence by Mr. Petrillo or by any other official of the American Federation of Musicians in the presence of their board that this contract would not be executed unless the television clause was included therein?

Mr. BOREN. I never heard it expressed that way exactly, but in this manner that I recall, that it was a "must," and when you are dealing with labor unions when they say "must" you understand all the implications of what "must" is, and they repeatedly said they were going to insist on the clause, repeatedly used the word "must"-that is a "must" clause.

Mr. MCCANN. And the "must" doesn't mean maybe, does it
Mr. BOREN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Ín your experience?

Mr. BOREN. No, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Did that complete your personal participation in the conferences and in the negotiations when you referred the television clause to the presidents, or did it come back to you in any way, shape, or form?

Mr. BOREN. It did not come back to me in any way, shape, or form after it was referred to the presidents.

Mr. MCCANN. In other words, the contract with all of its various clauses was worked out to the satisfaction of the negotiators from 1 to 99, let us say, with this one clause, called I, out.

Mr. BOREN. That is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. And that was referred to the presidents, but the rest of the terms and conditions and agreements were reached between the negotiators for the companies and the negotiators for the union? Mr. BOREN. That is correct.

Mr. MCCANN. Were you present at the meeting of the presidents of the companies when they decided what should be done with that "must"?

Mr. BOREN. I was not.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you have any personal knowledge of the presidents who passed upon that subject, who they were?

Mr. LUDDY. One of the group.

Mr. MCCANN. Ted Ellsworth

Mr. KEARNS. He is excused until Monday. I have a letter here.

I granted that.

Mr. MCCANN. I understand that.

Lewis A. Weiss. I told him he is excused.

He can come down in

an hour. He is president of Mutual Broadcasting Co.

Father George H. Dunn, N. Peter Rathbon, Ned Depinet, Nick Schenck, Spyros Skouras, John O'Connor, Jack Cohen, Nate E. Blumberg, Barney Balevam, Harry M. Warner, Richard F. Walsh. Mr. LUDDY. Same thing.

Mr. MCCANN. Now, Mr. Chairman, the names that have not answered here I was called by the studios and asked whether we would reach some of these men today.

I told them it was impossible and not to bring them down. If it is agreeable now, I suggest that the names that have been called be excused until day after tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Mr. KEARNS. Now, if it is pertaining to the jurisdictional phase of this I doubt whether we will get into that much before Monday. Mr. MCCANN. I think perhaps you are right.

Mr. KEARNS. There is no use of these people living through this period of anxiety when we know very well we won't need them until that time. So I think we would not enter into the jurisdictional phase of this situation until next Monday morning at 10 o'clock. We will clear up this music end of it the remainder of this week.

Mr. MCCANN. Mr. Chairman, I think that is very wise, because we have two or three other phases that have got to be developed and it is a little difficult to determine how long it will take on the examination of the broadcasters with respect to the television. So all of you ladies and gentlemen who are subpenaed for today

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. McCann, I am going to recess for 5 minutes. We will want you on the stand then, Mr. Paul.

Mr. PAUL. All right.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. KEARNS. The hearing will come to order.

Now, Mr. Paul, yesterday it was established in the record that you had approximately 13,000 members of the musicians union here in Los Angeles, plus 500 life memberships. Of the 13,000, do you have any idea how many are full-time employees of the profession?

Mr. PAUL. Anything I would say would be merely an estimate. I want to explain to you why that is so. We must have 700 or 800 members on the road with traveling bands and name bands, and that fluctuates from time to time. We just don't have any check on it.

Many of our members are in the same position that some of our board members and myself are in. I, for example, am employed at a radio station as a staff pianist. I also do what we call casual dance engagements. I do an occasional phonograph record date. I play casual radio shows. Many of us who make quite good incomes in the freelance field have no one employer, you see, and yet I think it would be safe to say we are full-time employees in the music field. It is a very difficult thing.

I think it would be even a difficult thing, and it would require an exhaustive and extensive study of our records, to even find out how many of our people are employed.

Mr. KEARNS. Establish this for me: How many members of the union in Los Angeles are not full-time employees-not employed full time as musicians, but would like to be.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Kearns, I think 13,500 would like to be, if they are not.

Mr. KEARNS. I don't agree with you there. No, sir. You don't understand what I am

Mr. PAUL. Perhaps I misunderstood your question.

Mr. KEARNS. Some fellow who is a doctor and belongs to your union doesn't want to earn his living tooting a horn.

Mr. PAUL. Of course.

Mr. KEARNS. How many men do you have in the union that would like to have a job full time?

Mr. PAUL. In other words, what is our unemployment problem, is what you are getting at?

Mr. KEARNS. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. That again is a matter of just a rough estimate, I should think. We have always a floating unemployed population of musicians of around 3,000. I should say that was a fair estimate, but it is merely my estimate.

Mr. KEARNS. Are most of them working at something else?

Mr. PAUL. Many of them work at something else from time to time. Many of them are unemployed and living on their savings. You see, a musician

Mr. KEARNS. What I want to get at here is-don't get off the subject here do you, as a member of the board and as a lifelong member of the union here, do you feel that the technological developments have put the musician out of work?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; indeed I do.

Mr. KEARNS. To what degree?

Mr. PAUL. To a very great degree.

Mr. KEARNS. Have you ever had a time in Los Angeles where more musicians were unemployed than there are now?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir. because this is a rapidly

Mr. KEARNS. Unusual time.

Mr. PAUL. No; it isn't that. This is a rapidly growing community, so we have never had a static Los Angeles. Los Angeles has grown by leaps and bounds ever since 1880. So if you take the number of musicians employed 10 years ago and compare it with now we have more musicians employed now, but we, of course, have a very much greater population and that many more places to accommodate that population.

Mr. KEARNS. Your figures don't make sense to me. When Mr. Petrillo was before us in Washington he stated he had 216,000 members in the union, yet he was worried and fearful about a technological development that has thrown men out of work from coast to coast. And yet the next question we asked him, "Are there many musicians that do not have a job if they want a job?"

He said, "No, but this is an unusual time-the war." He talked about the war and what it created. It created employment and so forth for musicians.

I have belonged to the union myself for 17 years, and I have never seen a situation where as many of them are employed as now, even when you had the theater orchestras.