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INVESTIGATION OF JAMES C. PETRILLO, THE AMERICAN

FEDERATION OF MUSICIANS, ET AL.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 6, 1947

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

Los Angeles, Calif.

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 324, United States Post Office Building and Court House, the Honorable Carroll D. Kearns (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Also present: Hon. Fred A. Hartley, Jr., chairman of the Committee on Education and Labor; Irving G. McCann, general counsel to the committee.

Mr. KEARNS. The hearing will come to order.

As stated yesterday, we will proceed this morning with the testimony pertaining to television and the movie industry.

Mr. TE GROEN. Mr. Chairman, our whole board of directors is here. If it doesn't concern them, could we entertain a motion toMr. KEARNS. Will you take the stand, please, Mr. te Groen? Counsel, will you question the witness regarding his officers, and then we can proceed from there?

TESTIMONY OF JOHN TE GROEN-Recalled

Mr. MCCANN. Will you state your name again for the record, please, sir?

Mr. TE GROEN. John te Groen.

Mr. MCCANN. You have been previously sworn in this case?
Mr. TE GROEN. I have been.

Mr. MCCANN. You are the vice president, acting chief officer of local 47?

Mr. TE GROEN. I am, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. You have your board of directors and trustees present?

Mr. TE GROEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Can you state to the committee whether you or any member of your board of trustees or directors had anything to do with entering into the contracts with the movie industry with respect to the musicians employed by them?

Mr. TE GROEN. None at all, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. By whom, on behalf of the A. F. of M., were those contracts made?

457

Mr. TE GROEN. Mr. J. W. Gillette.

Mr. MCCANN. Where is he?

Mr. TE GROEN. He is at our headquarters, awaiting your call, sir. Mr. MCCANN. I wish you would have Mr. Gillette report to us, and the members of your board are excused, except Mr. Bagley. I understand he was present at the time those contracts were made.

Mr. TE GROEN. I believe he was. When do you want us back?

Mr. MCCANN. I can't tell at this moment, sir. Perhaps we will want the treasurer sometime tomorrow.

Mr. TE GROEN. I might bring something to your attention. We have our regular business session, where our whole board has to meet on Friday. We have many appointments. If we could eliminate Friday

Mr. MCCANN. You are excused for Friday. I would like for the treasurer, if he has completed his study, to be available tomorrow morning.

Mr. TE GROEN. All right, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. Thank you very much.

Mr. TE GROEN. I would like to announce to the people here at the hearing that Mr. Bagley and myself were in conference with Mr. Carroll last evening. We entered into a contract and complete agreement, and it is being submitted to the federation, and in a few days it will be all signed up and buttoned up.

Mr. MCCANN. Thank you very much.

Now, Mr. Chairman, in the former testimony of Mr. Petrillo which was given to this committee in Washington, D. C., he testified to the effect that the contract made with the movie producers covering wages, hours, and working conditions included a clause prohibiting the use of any sound track showing musicians playing or reproducing music, and as I recall, he testified definitely that he had such a contract with every movie producer in the United States.

At that time we offered in evidence the portion of the contracts made by the American Federation of Musicians with the movie producers that related to television, but since we are this morning going into the subject with the movie producers, their bargaining committees, and those who participated with Mr. Petrillo in the making of those contracts, I believe that it might be appropriate to read again into the record the section of the contracts which we are going to consider. Mr. KEARNS. No objection.

Mr. MCCANN. I have in the files of the committee a letter from Mr. Charles Boren dated June 16, 1947, addressed to me, in which he stated:

Enclosed find the contract existing between the major producers and the American Federation of Musicians. This contract has been executed as separate contracts with the following studios:

Columbia Pictures Corp.; Loew's, Inc.; Paramount Pictures, Inc.; RKO Radio Pictures, Inc.; Samuel Goldwyn Studios; Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corp.; Universal Pictures Co., Inc.; Republic Production, Inc.; Hal Roach Studios, Inc.; Warner Bros. Pictures, Inc.

Sincerely,

And his signature.

CHARLES BOREN.

Now, Mr. Chairman, the contract is attached to this letter, and the clause to which he refers is clause I and reads as follows

Mr. KEARNS. Under what section?

Mr. MCCANN. The contract is written in sections designated by letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and so forth, and I am reading section I:

The producer agrees that it will not, without prior written consent of the federation, license, lease, lend, give, sell, utilize, or in any other way whatsoever authorize the use in whole or in part of the music sound track containing the recorded music made by members of the federation, or scenes or shots containing pictures of members of the federation performing on musical instruments, or conducting, heretofore made or which will be made prior to the expiration of this agreement on or in connection with television during the life of this agreement and thereafter, except only after separate negotiations are entered upon and after a separate written agreement has been reached between the federation or entered upon between the federation and the producers with respect to the use of such music sound tracks or such scenes or shots on or in connection with television can Such use be made, and then only upon the terms and conditions agreed upon by the federation and the producer in such a separate agreement.

Now, I have a letter from Mr. Marvin L. Faris, of the Society of Independent Motion Picture Producers, and that letter is dated June 16, 1947, and is addressed to me, and in that he states:

Transmitted herewith is a copy of the contract signed by Mr. Petrillo and 17 of the producer members of the society, as well as a copy of the A. F. of M. wage scales, and so forth.

Our contract here is in substance the same as that appearing in the first few pages of the booklet which is the one negotiated by the majors a little over a year ago. The subject matter of paragraph 14 of our contract does not appear in the contract shown in the booklet. Paragraph 15 of our contract covers the same subject matter as paragraph 14 shown in the booklet, except that some words were changed. Both of these differences were made to fit our situation, which involves a number of separate producers rather than one studio.

Now, I call attention to the fact, Mr. Chairman, that at the appropriate moment we will introduce this contract into evidence, to the fact that this contract was executed by the producers and I think by Mr. Petrillo, representing the American Federation of Musicians.

Mr. KEARNS. Is that the only signature of anyone from the federation?

Mr. MCCANN. The only signature appearing on this contract is "American Federation of Musicians, by James C. Petrillo, president." Mr. KEARNS. All right.

Mr. MCCANN. This differs from the major contracts in that the members of the Society of Independent Motion Picture Producers executed this contract with Mr. Petrillo.

Now, I am advised also by Mr. Isaac E. Chadwick, who represents the independent producers, that they have a contract of like character between their companies and Mr. Petrillo. I do not have a copy of that contract.

Mr. KEARNS. Do you have a copy of the one with Mr. Nelson?

Mr. MCCANN. I have a copy of the one, yes; the contract there. Now, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the issue before this committee is very definitely whether such a contract comes within the power of a regular labor organization to make, and whether a contract of this character made by business interests and by a labor leader is not, in effect, a violation of the Sherman Act.

I think that is the very serious matter that we should consider here under our House Resolution 111, investigating the activities of labor organizations.

Mr. Chairman, I think it might be wise at this time to call Mr. Bagley to the stand.

TESTIMONY OF C. L. BAGLEY-Recalled

Mr. KEARNS. You have already been sworn?

Mr. BAGLEY. I have already been sworn; yes, sir.

Mr. MCCANN. For the record, Mr. Bagley, state what position, if any, you hold with the American Federation of Musicians.

Mr. BAGLEY. Vice president.

Mr. MCCANN. You have held that position, I think you stated, consecutively for some 14 years?

Mr. BAGLEY. Now it is about 16 years-it is going into 16 years, anyway.

Mr. MCCANN. Do you recall the time at which a contract was entered into between Mr. Petrillo, on behalf of the American Federation of Musicians, and the major producers covering television? Mr. BAGLEY. I recall two or three times; yes.

Mr. MCCANN. Would you, in your own way, give us a statement of when the first contract was made, who was present, and so forth? Mr. BAGLEY. It is my recollection that the first contract negotiations—and I am speaking entirely from memory now-was some time in 1944.

It is my recollection that we intended to get into negotiations with them April 1 or thereabouts, but for reasons over which no one had any control, I think some one of the major producers was ill and we postponed it out of consideration of that.

Those negotiations were held entirely, as I recall it—unless something was done after I ceased to participate in it-out in the studios here. We met, I remember, in rooms in M-G-M, Culver City. It seems to me we might have had a session in some other place. was the first one.

That

Mr. MCCANN. Nothing developed as a result of those negotiations in 1944.

Mr. BAGLEY. Oh, yes; we entered into a contract with them for a period of time.

Mr. MCCANN. You did?

Mr. BAGLEY. Yes.

Mr. MCCANN. I thought you said it was not entered into then. Mr. BAGLEY. No; we entered into a contract.

Mr. MCCANN. In 1944?

Mr. BAGLEY. I think it was 1944-that is my recollection.

Now, the time approached when the contract was to expire, and then they started negotiations for another one.

I think that Nick Schenck was ill sometime during the early portion of last year, and if my memory serves me right, there was another little delay in the program on account of that. But we finally went to New York and all the negotiations, so far as I know anything about them were concluded in New York.

I remember being in New York, I think, at that time, about 3 weeks. We have negotiations day after day and went into all the details of them.

Now, as to who was present, that would be very difficult to answer. We had a whole group of producers, some of whom I didn't know. I might have been introduced to them. I don't recall the names of some of them, but I see quite a few of them in this room and I think they were present at both negotiations. I couldn't tell you who was present.

Mr. Gillette, Mr. Petrillo, myself, and I believe they asked "Spike" Wallace to sit in that first negotiation here, and he did sit in as an observer. The local union here has no jurisdiction over the movingpicture studios at all. He was simply asked to come there, I suppose, to relate some of his experiences and some of his knowledge about the matter, because he had long been employed in the movie studios and he knew considerable about the technique of it.

I think that was the sole reason he was there. And he went to New York in the proceedings of April last year, and before we had gotten fairly started into the matter he acquired bronchial pneumonia and very nearly passed away. It was only by the utmost exertion of physicians his life was saved, and we finally got him home here.

Mr. MCCANN. You state the negotiations started in 1944 over this television clause?

Mr. BAGLEY. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. MCCANN. When did it start, sir?

Mr. BAGLEY. I can't tell you that. I haven't any of the contracts in my possession. I do not remember accurately the terms of them. Television was discussed in the last contract-I know that. I think that clause in there was interjected into the contract in the last negotiations. I do not recall it was in the other, though it may have been. Mr. MCCANN. That was my understanding. It was my impression that you stated that television was covered in the contract of 1944. Mr. BAGLEY. No.

Mr. MCCANN. There is no clause, then, in that contract as to television?

Mr. BAGLEY. I wouldn't say there was or there wasn't. long contract.

Mr. MCCANN. It was discussed at that time?

That is a

Mr. BAGLEY. I wouldn't want to say that, because that is a very long document and I don't think anybody in the world has a sufficiently photographic mind to remember all the things in that; I know I haven't.

Mr. MCCANN. You know that the television clause was put into the contract in 1946?

Mr. BAGLEY. Of course it was. There is no dispute about that at all; it speaks for itself.

Mr. McCANN. Now, I want to ask you who represented at your organization of the A. F. of M. at the 1946 meeting?

Mr. BAGLEY. Well, besides Mr. Petrillo and the entire membership of the international executive board, we had a group of studio musicians that were brought there on account of their peculiar knowledge of the technique of the business.

There was a group of them-I could name several of them; I don't think I could name all of them-

Mr. MCCANN. That group of studio musicians did not have anything to do with drawing the terms of this contract nor with negotiating its terms, did they, with respect to the television clause? That is the only clause I am interested in.

Mr. BAGLEY. I can't separate any of the clauses. The contract is a contract and speaks for itself. All these matters were considered, as I remember it, at the time. And these musicians there were testifying out of their practical knowledge as to the technique of the movingpicture business from their standpoint of performing musicians.

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