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solved those technical problems, and with money, it will only get worse and not get better. So, over time, I see it a harder problem to deal with. And quite frankly, I would suspect if his nuclear weapons program-once you have two, three or four, it becomes a shadow that allows you to do other things, use chemical and biological against his neighbors and know that we won't go.

But you put your finger on the heart of the issue, and that is what sort of person he is and what does he care about his survival. We have a hard time-let me be sure I am not held by the chairman in contempt-we have a hard time believing that politicians mean what they say. If you read Saddam Hussein's statements about Israel, about the United States, about Saudi Arabia and all, this is an individual who, given-I am extraordinarily reluctant to believe we should give the awesome power and count on him being rational, to always believe his survival, and so he should threaten them and not use them.

And also, he is surrounding neighbors that are of two types, that I find we are not paying enough attention to the risk we are running. Most of his neighbors do not have enough military force to interfere in their own affairs. They are weak states. They depend on us for whatever security they have.

There is one exception as an immediate neighbor, and that is Iran, which is engaged in a weapons of mass destruction program for which we have a hard time bringing any pressure to bear, because I think in our hearts those of us who dealt with them in the region recognize that that program in part is designed against Saddam. I suspect if Saddam stays in power and his weapons program goes ahead, the Iranian program will go ahead, and that just becomes a very, very dangerous region.

The reverse of that, however, is true and we haven't spelled that out. A replacement regime for Saddam Hussein that is committed to dealing peacefully with its neighbors is a tremendously attractive proposition in the Middle East.

Rich Spertzel and I can tell you in great detail about our appreciation of the middle class in Iraq, of the dedication of the scientific and technical learning they have. Imagine what would change if we had an Iraq that was committed to some form of democracy, such as it might as in the Middle East, and living peacefully with its neighbors. What a challenge that would pose for the Saudis, a challenge to the Iranians. The reverse side is one that I would prefer to deal with: the optimistic, hopeful side of what it might be without Iraq.

And let me say in my testimony-and Mr. Allen cited a point right below it-said Iraq is not Libya and that is why it is harder to eliminate the program. It is much more like post-Versailles, Germany.

But, Iraq is also not Afghanistan in terms of a functioning society that can be recreated. The ratio of population to oil to two river valleys, that for centuries have been irrigated, is a tremendous possibility for peace in a region that sadly needs it.

So I guess it is a personal decision. I would prefer not to run the risk of greater weapons in the hands of an individual like Saddam that attracts his neighbors either to cut deals with him or to develop their own weapons of mass destruction and try to deal with

the future without him. I basically believe that is a lot better for our country and for his neighbors.

D. SPERERE. And I would like to add, if I might, that I guess one of my Bustrations is that it seems to me that the decision is we pither do something to change that regime's mind—and if that

changing the regime, so be it or we decide we don't really or wheat he does and we are willing to live with it, because don't contamment. It hasn't worked. Embargo hasn't worked. Tico borders are as leaky as a sieve trying to hold water. We bow that We saw ample evidence of prohibited items that we mudding in our routine inspection sites. And inspectors aren't As dug to do it for you without a change in attitude and without the www.onditional support of the permanent five members, which you


and going to get. So the decision is either we do something alead it, we don't do anything. But then let's stop talking about

M. MANCHE Mr. Chairman, will you indulge me? The second spotion it is a very quick answer from both of them. M. HONTER All right. Very quick.

AL RANCHEA Nuclear knowledge, because you have it and I dack An ability for Iraq to both have nuclear arms and a delivery tin that comes here to the United States-I believe, not talking aloud walking in through terrorism. Terrorism I put in a different It is something we are at war with right now. How far car in your best estimate would that be for him?

With regard to a weapon, a device that would work, go In a fosile yield if he had the material, my best guess is somewhere and are months. Months not years, I have said, to do it. If he is to develop the fissile material himself, I can do no better than to firman stimate, which is three to six years, but doesn't tell kage when the clock started running on that three to six years.

The delivery method I am not talking about terrorism. A shippng container that has a global positioning system (GPS) device or 4 and device strikes me, if I send it here I mean, we are hood into believing that the only way you can deliver weapons of * destruction is ballistic missiles or high-performance aircraft. There are other ways to do it if you have a different model to do i think it he wanted to destroy Tel Aviv, if he had a missile he Woud cortainly prefer to use it. But, I think he will think of other w to do it, delivering other than a missile.

I think in terms of his missile delivery program, the crucial intediout that we don't know enough about, but we have just got Aitle evidence is foreign assistance. He has clearly gotten forV maststance on his solid missile fuel production facility. We kut know exactly where that came from. If the sanctions come off the money runs. Could he get enough-I think that's end of the dodo, next somewhere in the next decade for missile delivery.

I would hate to see any policy based on that as the only way You can deliver a weapon of mass destruction. For biology, for exuple, as experts will tell you, a missile is a lousy way to deliver blogical weapon.

Als SANCHEZ. I am not talking about biology. I am talking about lar. I am sure he has got the other and got a way to deliver 2. But, to us here, not in a typical walk-across or the nuclear suit

case or what I would call a terrorism-type of situation, you are saying a decade away.

Dr. KAY. I am saying by missiles. But let me be clear. That was not the only way the Soviets intended to deliver it. And it is probably not the only way that he would think of having to deliver it if he wanted to. I don't call that terrorism. I just call it an asymmetrical way of facing the United States. We happen to believe in missiles. There is no reason everyone else should believe in missiles.

Ms. SANCHEZ. And quickly, Doctor, because my chairman

Dr. SPERTZEL. Well, again, it might be a covert delivery system as opposed to overt. Whether you call that terrorism or not is something else. But I could-again I would prefer not to in open session, but I could tell you ways that I suspect, even with our enhanced sensitivity to security, that a determined enemy could deliver an effective biological weapon or agent, particularly to our coastal cities. Ms. SANCHEZ. Thank you, Doctor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HUNTER. Okay. Thank you very much. And I think when you reflect on the fact that we have got in excess of 6,000 cargo containers coming into our ports daily and we inspect around three percent of them, there is a fairly large pool of candidate vehicles for that.

Mrs. Davis.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, gentlemen, for being here to testify before us. You know, right now, our country is in a war on terrorism. The American people are behind our President, I believe, on this war and they seem to be open to what we do. Our allies seem to be in agreement with us on the war on terrorism.

With that in mind, Dr. Spertzel, in your opening statement, not your written, but in your opening statement, you made a comment that the greatest threat to the U.S. is in, "biological agents to be used by terrorists." However, when the question was asked about terrorism, Dr. Kay, I believe you said we had no evidence that there was any real linkage between Iraq and the terrorists.

Dr. KAY. On the nuclear; I was speaking only of nuclear.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Okay. Do we have any evidence then, Dr. Spertzel, that there is any linkage between Iraq and the terrorists?

Dr. SPERTZEL. Yes. Terrorist-terrorism was clearly an integral part of the Iraqi BW program from its very inception in the early 1970s. The nature of the agents, some of the studies that they were conducting clearly indicated that. The evidence is still not concrete yet, but I believe that doctor Christine Gosden is collecting pretty doggone good evidence that Iraq has used aflatoxin against the Kurds in the north and may be still using it. And I already mentioned the case of wheat cover smut, or wheat bunt as we know it in the U.S., by clandestine delivery means. And they acknowledge that it was that they envisioned it; they called it "secretive delivery." I think that was a euphemism for terrorists. So you have that.

And then, as I say, I happen-and I don't believe I am a lone individual anymore because I think I have made a few converts who

happen to believe that that high-quality anthrax spore material last fall very likely has "made in Baghdad" written on it.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. It is all just hypothetical, though. No


Dr. SPERTZEL. Oh, yeah, if you are looking for a smoking gun-

Dr. SPERTZEL [continuing]. I can absolutely guarantee you, you will not find it. Not now, not in the future. The technology for finding that smoking gun, at least in the biology field, is not there. Absolutely will not find it.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. So we would be asked in Congress to vote on going into Iraq based on total speculation?

Dr. SPERTZEL. That is one way of looking at it. I mean, you know, you do an assessment based on the best information. I mean that is the way we finally forced Iraq to acknowledge their BW program. It was an assessment of the information, admittedly sketchy, but it seemed to make a cohesive story. And that is what you have to act on. It is a value judgment. There is no way around it.

Dr. KAY. Mrs. Davis, if I could add, I have certainly been inarticulate if I have indicated that this is based on simply speculation. We have 11 years of the physical reality of Iraq trying to conceal its weapons program. We have the physical reality of what was discovered in spite of that concealment program. It was not what either Dr. Spertzel or I would have liked to have discovered. We would have liked to have discovered more. But in terms of their weapons capability and weapons programs, those are solid-reality physical evidence, of which we have produced tons of documents. Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Dr. Kay, for the record I am with you on going into Iraq. The problem I have is to go back to my constituents and tell them why.

Dr. KAY. No. If I indicated speculation, that is not the basis I would ever urge anyone to do. I think there is a lot of real physical evidence there.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. On the nuclear weapons I agree, but I was going back to the comment that Dr. Spertzel made about the greatest threat to the U.S. is the biological agents to be used as terrorists, and I just wanted that clarified.

Dr. SPERTZEL. Again, as I have indicated, you know, the fact that we know that that was an integral part of their program to start with. I am very concerned about that consortium, if you like, between the three individuals that I named earlier, as related to some obviously clandestine genetic engineering. Otherwise they had no reason to lie to us. I mean, if it was a program there would be no objection to, they could have told us where these people were working and that would have been the end of it.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I just hoped you had a little bit more information to give me, that was all.

Dr. KAY. So do we.

Dr. SPERTZEL. So do we.

Mrs. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. But I agree, he is a bad guy and we need to go forward and do something to protect our Americans


I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. HUNTER. Thank you. Mr. Rodriguez.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Thank you very much.

Dr. Kay, I was interested to hear your comments that you made regarding our missile defense, the thought that that might be the worst way of delivering this system. I know that disproportionately we might-we kick in a good amount of resources into that area in which I, you know-maybe I know that this should go into other methods of fighting terrorism instead of our major national missile defense system. But thank you for that comment.

Let me ask you, I have always applied the principle that if our national security is in danger and that we are directly in danger that we ought to act unilaterally and just strike, but that if it isn't, then every effort needs to be made to look at it from a multilateral perspective and to reach out to your friends and allies. I have been real concerned with what the Germans have the chancellor has said about the lack of discussions with them, the French and everyone else.

And I was wondering how you would-you know, make some comments as it relates to that. But also, if you would be willing to look at if you had a team of inspectors that could go in there and have full access, if you would feel comfortable under those settings. Dr. KAY. Well let me deal with the two-part question. With regard to having allies, look, I was a 97-pound kid who grew up on the east side of Houston. I always found it was useful to have friends. It insured my survival; that, and being able to run fast. So in principle, I think one would like to have it. I think during the period that started when I-about the time I left, it certainly was much worse during most of Dr. Spertzel's time you had a number of Security Council members decide that if it were a serious problem the U.S. would take care of it. If it is not a serious problem, why shouldn't we go ahead and make economic hay while we can? And so I think we have failed to convince the world that it is their problem as well, and not just our problem. This is one of the problems of being the last superpower. You know, why did the Europeans wait around for us to straighten out Kosovo? It was in their back yard. So I mean, I think there is a large element of that. I think we lost the psychological war of trying to explain that and explaining that it was not sanctions and inspections that were hurting the Iraq people; it was Saddam's behavior. So on that issue, I mean I am with you. I would rather have more, rather than

Your second question is the question that is an extraordinarily troubling question for me, because the question is if we had inspectors in again, wouldn't you feel that they could do it. The issue is not the insertion of inspectors; the issue is the behavior of the Iraqi Government. As long as Iraq can continue to engage in protecting its programs, concealing, denying, and deceiving about those programs, the level of intrusiveness that would be necessary to overcome that, and the resources, wouldn't look, quite frankly, any different than an occupation.

You know, we had two helicopters at our disposal. I came back to the U.S. and I found TV stations that had bigger and better helicopters for traffic reporting. The amount of resources and inspectors you would have to put in to have confidence that you have eliminated a program that they spent two decades on, probably $40

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