oped countries." Could you give the committee a few examples in this regard?

Mr. CALDWELL. I don't have the figures right before me but, again, the members that we represent, which are the engineers and licensed officers are very competitive and we can give those figures to you. I think they will demonstrate what we are saying. Mr. DONNELLY. I will give you an easy one this time.

Of the 42,000 members of the National Maritime Engineers' Beneficial Association and its affiliates, how many of these members are actively employed in the U.S.-flag merchant vessels and how many are now retired?

Mr. CALDWELL. I can't give you the exact retirement figure, although I can for the record. We actually have some 9,000 to 10,000 members that are actively working at this time in the trade. Mr. DONNELLY. With respect to the membership that is retired, if you can't give me the exact numbers, the percentages.

Mr. CALDWELL. I can give those to you for the record but I will have to check our records and get back to you.

Mr. DONNELLY. If you could, we would like to find out exactly how many are at an age that could be recalled during a national emergency, and in a national emergency, how long would it take to notify these men that their services are required.

Mr. CALDWELL. We can supply that information and we will readily do so. My supposition would be that there are probably not that many. After all, you have had a decline in the fleet, a decline in the work force and under those conditions, experience in other industries as well as this one would tell me that my off-the-cuff comment would be that there wouldn't be as many as would possibly be necessary certainly in an emergency. But we will supply those figures exactly for you.

Mr. DONNELLY. For the record, I would appreciate it if you would respond to those.

Mr. Snyder?

Mr. Snyder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Caldwell, I think we all share the common concern of attempting to bring down the cost of operating the U.S. fleet so that we can encourage its increase.

Mr. CALDWELL. Anything that would encourage its increase would certainly make us happy.

Mr. SNYDER. How many people do you represent?

Mr. CALDWELL. We have 42,000 people that are either members and/or affiliates with the National MEBA. The seagoing work force is 9,000 to 10,000 members, sir.

Mr. SNYDER. How many of the American carriers do you have under contract, percentagewise?

Mr. CALDWELL. I will have to supply that for the record as well. I don't have that information right before me.

Mr. SNYDER. Is the ball park figure of 90 percent fairly accurate? Mr. CALDWELL. I would think, yes, sir.

Mr. SNYDER. Could you also supply for the record the number of your employees who receive medical benefits as a result of your medical care program and the number who receive services from the Public Health Service hospitals?

Mr. CALDWELL. That will be supplied for the record, yes, sir.

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Mr. SNYDER. If we could just discuss that a little bit, without any direct questions, it is my understanding, and if there are any errors in it that you want to respond to when you supply those things for the record, please do it because I want to have the facts straight. Mr. CALDWELL. We want to give them to you straight and that is what we intend to do.

Mr. SNYDER. My understanding is that the contributions to your medical plan are something like $9 or $92 per day per employee, and, on the other side we still have the Public Health Service hospital system that is available without any contribution on the part of either the companies or the seamen. Is that—not the numbers-principle roughly accurate?

Mr. CALDWELL. Our accountants can certainly give me the statistical figures that you require. I don't have them before me, but I can certainly give those to you and we can answer your questions in detail and will do so.

Mr. SNYDER. Is there any public accounting of the funds that you collect for your medical program?

Mr. CALDWELL. When you say public accounting, there is an accounting of every dollar that has anything to do with this organization, I can assure you that.

Mr. SNYDER. Is there accounting that is available to the committee?

Mr. CALDWELL. We will make it available to the committee. Mr. SNYDER. I only look at the figures superficially, but I know that our Blue Cross plan, including the Government contribution, is substantially less than that and I just wonder whether or not there is some area there of benefit to us in reducing the cost of operating the merchant marine.

Mr. CALDWELL. Having read any number of statements in my lifetime, there are all sorts of ways of reading statements, of course, and what I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, is that we simply respond directly to your question in detail and, hopefully, satisfy your inquiry.

Mr. SNYDER. Is it approximately accurate that in addition to the $9 or $91⁄2 a day that is paid in per employee into your medical program that there is approximately $3 a day per employee paid into the training program-the schools?

Mr. CALDWELL. Again, sir, I have been working for the marine engineers now for about 6 months and I am sort of like a freshman member of this committee, as a matter of fact. I would much prefer to supply these answers to the committee for the record and they will be in detail.

Mr. SNYDER. Let me put it to you on this basis, then. I am going to state what my understanding is and you can respond subsequently as to whether or not it is accurate. It is my understanding that there is roughly $9.50 a day that is contributed per employee into the medical program, roughly $3 a day contributed into the training program, roughly $1 a day that is contributed per employee into the hiring halls fund, and roughly $1.40 a day contributed into research per employee.

If those numbers are not accurate, please correct it in any response that you will make for the record.

Mr. CALDWELL. Absolutely, sir.

Mr. SNYDER. And, then, if you would, supply such details or information as you can in regard to the number of your people who receive services under the medical program to which a contribution is made and the number who receive them under what appears to me to be the duplicate program of the Public Health Service hospitals.

Mr. CALDWELL. I understand your concern, sir, and that will be done.

Mr. SNYDER. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DONNELLY. Ms. Mikulski.

Ms. MIKULSKI. Given your newness to the union I don't know if you could answer this, but I am very much concerned about the national security and safety of this country and you alluded to that in your opening remarks on page 1.

Is it your opinion-first of all, I am concerned about the current stability of the world, the President's efforts notwithstanding, but if we should be engaged in either some type of global confrontation or even a specific one-for example, in the Middle East-do you think that we have the American merchant marine capacity to carry both the military oil and dry flow cargo that we would need to maintain ourselves and protect ourselves?

Mr. CALDWELL. Looking at the number of American ships currently under the American flag, certainly they would not necessarily sustain us in the kind of emergency that you describe, in no

way.

Ms. MIKULSKI. I really don't know how to interpret the figures on page 2, in which you give the numbers, but it seemed to me that in a crunch, for example, to get oil and dry bulk or minerals and so on for industrial work alone from the Third World, regardless of where that Third World is; Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, I ultimately believe in a confrontation; all you can count on is yourself because you are never sure who your friends are, and your friends have to come first with their own needs.

Therefore, I wasn't sure what these figures actually meant in terms of being able to respond even minimally.

Mr. CALDWELL. I would simply say that considering the minute proportion of the foreign trade of this country that is currently being carried in American-flag carriers, it is pretty obvious that in a national emergency we would really be behind the eight ball. I can give you some detailed figures and contrast tonnage that we had under the American flag, say, in World War II or some of our previous conflicts and give you some detailed studies of what would be envisionaged as needed under the sort of emergency that you describe.

Ms. MIKULSKI. Certainly, in World War II, when we were at a peak capacity, would be one set of figures, but also, I think Vietnam, in which we were engaged in an active conflict, regardless of what you call it, and that brings me to another point.

The administration is currently engaged in establishing some multiple trade agreements, the so-called MTN that will eventually be before the Congress sometime this year.

Mr. CALDWELL. Do you have a copy of it? We can't seem to find one. It is very difficult to do these days.

Ms. MIKULSKI. I understand it is the one draft we can count on. One of the reasons you can't find a copy, I understand, is that it is still actually in negotiation.

Does your union have any thoughts or recommendations that should be brought to Ambassador Strauss' attention and even the President's attention on what should be in our trade agreements; No. 1, to provide open and free access in the world to trade; No. 2, to make sure that other nations, either through indirect subsidies, certain cargo preference laws which we don't seem to embrace here in our own country place us at a disadvantage?

To me, the good guys really aren't being rewarded in the trade situation. Most of us who are free traders are now victims of what I think are unfair trade practices.

Mr. CALDWELL. Congresswoman, I couldn't agree with you more. The national AFL-CIO, of which we are, of course, a part, adopted a detailed statement on maritime policy at its recent meeting in Bal Harbour, and I could supply that to you for the record. That would detail our point of view that all of us and our colleagues agree upon about this particular policy.

The AFL-CIO, again, of which we are a part, also recently testified on its questions vis-a-vis these negotiations that are currently going on and did so in a way to demonstrate our degree of frustration with just what exchanges or what is being proposed.

We are, like so many Members of Congress and other people, in the dark to a large extent as to what just exactly is going to be coming forth, and we would very much like to know.

Ms. MIKULSKI. I understand.

What I would appreciate is for you to furnish that policy not only for the record but I would like to personally have a copy because I feel that these trade agreements are really a way in which we can shape policy that would be to the world's advantage and to our own.

Thank you.

Mr. CALDWELL. I will supply those detailed policy statements to you this afternoon.

Ms. MIKULSKI. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman, I have no other questions.

Mr. DONNELLY. Mr. McCloskey?

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Caldwell, with that very fine medical insurance program that you have for your members, I take it that if we close down all eight of the Public Health Service hospitals no member of your union would lose one whit of medical benefits or the availability of treatment; is that correct?

MC CALDWEL4. I am not certain that that is correct, but I would think that the medical plan that we currently have for our membors is a fine one and certainly

Mr. McCLONKEY. It covers your members, therefore, you don't need the Public Health Service any longer; is that correct?

ME CALDWELL. Having once worked for a Member of Congress some years ago who spent a lifetime trying to keep those hospitals open, it would certainly ill-behoove me to recommend their closing. ME MCCLOSKEY. But that was some years ago. I know you have only been with the union 6 months but, as of today, 1979, as we try

to cut back the cost of Government, if the medical plans of the seagoing unions are adequate to give them proper health service, this would be a prime candidate to cut, would it not?

Mr. CALDWELL. Why don't I arrange to have a detailed statement of the union's position given to the member on that.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. I wish you would pay my respects to Mr. Calhoon and tell him, with all due respect, that I hope he will be able to answer all these questions.

Mr. CALDWELL. I have no doubt that we will be able to do that, sir, and will do so.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. I have one other question. In your testimony you indicate a belief that we ought to have more bulk carriers under the U.S. flag. Would it matter to your union whether we bought those carriers abroad or built them in U.S. shipyards? Mr. CALDWELL. We really tend to think that the merchant marine's crisis state is an all-encompassing one and we think that to meet the sort of crisis conditions, for example, that was previously described by Congresswoman Mikulski, certainly you would not want to have just one part of this operation without the other, and that capability of building ships in this country is a vital and important one I think.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. If I were to quote to you testimony by one of the unsubsidized steamship operators, that you mentioned are making profits, that the construction subsidy program and the requirement to build in U.S. yards is an albatross around the neck of operating shipowners. Would you feel that in the interest of creating more seagoing jobs we might remove that albatross so that American steamship companies operating under the U.S. flag could buy those ships abroad rather than have to undergo the interminable delays, almost twice the construction time, for example, in a U.S. yard as opposed to a foreign yard?

We may have that choice to make this year. I would be interested in your opinion as to whether or not we shouldn't put the emphasis on seagoing ships and jobs rather than land based construction yards. The testimony has been clear that in the event of war it will be 3 years before the first ship ordered to meet a wartime emergency can come down the ways for use by the United States.

Mr. CALDWELL. Rather than make an ad hoc statement that might not be fully reflective of the policy of the organization which I represent, I think that I ought to submit that to you in detail and in writing.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. I agree and I look forward to the energy that will go into the preparation of this answer.

Thank you.

Mr. DONNELLY. Thank you very much.

Mr. Snyder?

Mr. SNYDER. Just one further question. This question may perhaps find me at a little bit of a variance with my ranking member on the full committee, Mr. McCloskey, which causes me more concern than it will you.

Mr. MCCLOSKEY. I rather welcome it.

Mr. SNYDER. His question about the availability of foreign ships and your response causes me to conclude, I think, and I ask you,