three years, three years and a half. [Conferring.] I just never go there. [Conferring.] That is handled by Mr. Wolfe. It is handled by Mr. Dawson, who is the vice president of Carthage Hydrocol. And it is handled by Mr. Allen K. Brehm, who is the treasurer of Carthage Hydrocol.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Do you have any recollection of making any personal visits or telephone calls to Mr. Gunderson or anyone in the RFC in Washington during this period in the fall of 1950?

Mr. GABRIELSON. Not that I remember.

Mr. FLANAGAN. You must have been in Washington or met Mr. Gunderson some place around that period when you discussed this New York Stock Exchange matter with him.

Mr. GABRIELSON. I happen to live in Washington, Mr. Flanagan. I live at the Mayflower Hotel.

Mr. FLANAGAN. That is not the answer to the question.

Mr. GABRIELSON. I know it; but you seem to think that it is rather peculiar that I should be in Washington. I am in Washington a great deal of the time, and I see a great many people here.

Mr. FLANAGAN. I will reframe my question.

Do you recollect conferring with Mr. Gunderson at about this time

Mr. GABRIELSON. On Carthage Hydrocol ?

Mr. FLANAGAN (continuing). On Carthage Hydrocol?

Mr. GABRIELSON. I do not.

Mr. FLANAGAN. I asked that because you obviously must have conferred with him about the New York Stock Exchange.

Mr. GABRIELSON. Conferred with him?

Mr. FLANAGAN. Talked with him then about that time.

Mr. GABRIELSON. Sure, I might have had lunch with him. And in the course of the conversation the matter of his employment or his future business activities might come up-I am sure that it did, and I said, “Well, what about the New York Stock Exchange?”

This rather interests me very much and slightly amuses me that you make such a great point out of this thing that in my own mind there was no point to it at all.

Mr. FLANAGAN. We are merely trying to clear up the facts.

Mr. GABRIELSON. Yes; you are certainly dwelling on it a long time, I'd say.

Mr. FLANAGAN. At the time you had this discussion or conversation with Mr. Gunderson concerning the New York Stock Exchange, did you tell him what you would or could do for him in that regard? Mr. GABRIELSON. I certainly did not-I did not know. I have no connection with the New York Stock Exchange. I have no way of getting to, of talking to people, and I had no, I had no way-I have no influence with the New York Stock Exchange. How could I do

Mr. FLANAGAN. What did you tell Mr. Gunderson you would try to do for him?

Mr. GABRIELSON. I told him I would see if I could see some of the members of the New York Stock Exchange to put his name in. As I recall it, there were some 54 names that went in before the New York Stock Exchange, someone told me up there.

Mr. FLANAGAN. And that is when you went to Mr. Brehm, who apparently knew these

Mr. GABRIELSON. I did not go to Mr. Brehm. I had lunch with Mr. Brehm, and the subject might have come up.

Mr. FLANAGAN. You talked to Mr. Brehm about it then?

Mr. GABRIELSON. You see, you are trying to make it that I started out here on a great quest just to capture the New York Stock Exchange seat for Mr. Gunderson which is not true at all, and you know it.

Senator NIXON. Mr. Gabrielson, I realize that you place in your own mind very little importance on this incident, and I can understand possibly why you would come to the conclusion that Mr. Flanagan's questions were designed to place an implication on the incident which is not deserved, but I do think that in all fairness in analyzing the evidence here that the incident standing by itself, as I indicated a moment ago, should be explained fully, and for that reason I think that Mr. Flanagan's questions are for that purpose. I mean, they are to get the facts out, and I think if the facts are as you have stated them in answer to previous questions, the cross-examination will establish that, but the incident standing by itself in the record, I think you will admit, is one which would create certainly a bad impression. And that is the purpose of Mr. Flanagan's questions.

Mr. GABRIELSON. Well, Senator, if I was a little quick or cross with Mr. Flanagan, I am very sorry.

Senator NIXON. Let me say that Mr. Flanagan, we have found, is a very able counsel for the committee. And he treats all of the witnesses the same. I can assure you of that. I think the chairman will bear me out on that.

Senator HOEY. That is unquestionably true.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Just one or two more questions.

Senator MCCLELLAN. I might make this observation, if I may, to Mr. Gabrielson, that unexplained-leaving it in a state of fog-speculation simply would not serve your interests at all. And every bit of light that can be thrown on it to substantiate the position you take about it, which in all probability is correct, I think is quite proper. The public is vitally interested in inferences that are often drawn from little things that make mountains out of them when they are unexplained. And while it may have been covered adequately already, the point is that

Mr. GABRIELSON. Senator, just let me say this: I practiced law, or did, before I became chairman-I practiced law in New York City. I do not have legal transactions; I mean, I do not represent stockexchange firms. My business has always been with manufacturing companies and people of that kind, but not stock-exchange firms.. So I have no interest or no possible connection with any governor of the New York Stock Exchange.

When this matter came up between Mr. Gunderson-I am trying to be just as frank as I can about the thing

Senator MCCLELLAN. The only thing

Mr. GABRIELSON. When this matter came up between Mr. Gunderson and myself he might have raised it, I might have raised it, anyway, it was raised, as to the question of whether he-whether he would be interested in securing the presidency of the New York Stock Exchange. Senator MCCLELLAN. I can appreciate that. The only point I am making is that, do not ascribe to us some ulterior motive or trying to slant this thing to give the wrong impression to the public from the facts. Our objective here is to clear up those things from which wrong

inferences are drawn as well as to explore those things that indicate an inference should be drawn. We are trying to get the truth on this record, so that no one can misunderstand.

Mr. GABRIELSON. I shall certainly give you my greatest cooperation in that.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Mr. Gabrielson, I do not want to keep belaboring this point, but I do want to get all of the facts that I feel that the record should have.

I notice in Mr. Brehm's memorandum to you of October 11 that he states that he gave Schreiber three copies of the biographical sketch of Gunderson.

Do you now recall obtaining biographical sketches from Mr. Gunderson for the purpose of presenting them to someone in connection with his possible obtaining of this job as president of the stock exchange?

Mr. GABRIELSON. Mr. Gunderson certainly gave a copy of his biographical sketch to me. Now whether I had some extra copies made of it-I very likely did, and I might have passed them around which I probably did. No reason why I should not.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Did you pass them around to anybody other than Mr. Brehm?

Mr. GABRIELSON. Not that I remember. I do not think I did. Mr. FLANAGAN. Were you interested in getting him any other type of employment other than the stock exchange?

Mr. GABRIELSON. No, that is the only one. That is the only one that came to my mind or came to our joint minds. No, I did not advocate him for any other job at all.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Did you ever discuss his employment in any other job with anybody else other than Mr. Brehm?

Mr. GABRIELSON. No. Well, I would not know. I did not do it generally. Now I remember talking to Mr. Brehm about it, but I do not think I talked to anybody else about it. I do not recall that I did, and I do not want to appear foggy on this at all, but you just see it never assumed any particular importance to me of just somebody comes along, we talk about a job, you pass along the information. I do that a great many times.

Mr. FLANAGAN. There is one other matter that I want to clear the record here.

up for

In your statement, I will refer you to the bottom of page 6, and 7, the last sentence there says [reading]:

I don't own a share of stock of Carthage Hydrocol, directly or indirectly, nor in any of the stockholding companies except a qualifying share in Hydrocarbon Research to enable me to be a director.

In that regard, in this exhibit that was put in the record this morning by the RFC, on page 3 it indicates and states as follows [reading]:

Dobjo, Inc., is owned 49 percent by P. C. Keith, president of Hydrocarbon Research, Inc., 49 percent by John B. O'Connor, executive vice president of Dresser Industries

Senator MCCARTHY. What page?

Mr. FLANAGAN. Page 3 of the RFC memorandum. That is, it is page 3 of exhibit A.

Senator McCARTHY. It is exhibit A.

Mr. FLANAGAN (reading):

and 2 percent by Guy George Gabrielson.

Do you, in fact, own 2 percent of that stock, Mr. Gabrielson?

Mr. GABRIELSON. No, I do not. There are 100 shares of this stock that represents, as I recall it, two-thirds of the voting stock of Hydrocarbon Research. The correct pronunciation of that is "Dob-jo," a combination of names, Dobby Keith and John O'Connor, so it is called "Dob-jo." There are 100 shares of stock. And in actual beneficial ownership Mr. Keith owns 50 shares and Mr. O'Connor owns 50 shares. They each put one share in my name and it is still in my name. That belongs to them which they are entitled to get back whenever they want to, but to keep from having a deadlock between them in voting the stock of Hydrocarbon Research, the two shares are lodged with me. Mr. FLANAGAN. I wanted to clear that up.

Mr. GABRIELSON. That is the correct statement.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Because it did look like an inconsistency between your statement and this record, and I discussed it with you before, and I was sure that was the explanation.

Mr. GABRIELSON. That is right.

Mr. FLANAGAN. You in fact do not own any stock in Dob-jo? Mr. GABRIELSON. Nor do I own any stock in Hydrocarbon. Under the law of the State of New Jersey you cannot serve as a director unless you have one share of stock registered in your name. There is one share of stock registered in my name in Hydrocarbon to qualify me to serve as a director of Mr. Keith's outfit, Hydrocarbon Research, Inc. Mr. FLANAGAN. There is one other statement here in your statement this morning that I should like to refer to. I refer you to page 6, the second to last paragraph, second sentence of that paragraph. You state this [reading]:

It is perfectly clear, therefore, that neither before nor after I became chairman did I receive a fee, or any other compensation, for obtaining a Government loan, and I expect this committee to so state in its report.

Since you have been Republican National chairman, dating back to August 1949, you have received an annual salary plus legal fees of $25,000 per year?

Mr. GABRIELSON. That is correct.

Senator NIXON. Annual salary from Carthage.

Mr. FLANAGAN. From Carthage.

Mr. GABRIELSON. Annual salary of $15,000 and my law firm receives $10,000 for doing the legal work.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Yes, sir.

Was it part of your duties as counsel and president of Carthage
Hydrocol, since August, 1949, to confer with any representatives of the
RFC with regard to various aspects of the servicing of this loan?
Mr. GABRIELSON. I would think that would come under the general
category of being the president of the company; yes, sir.

Mr. FLANAGAN. That would be part of your duties?
Mr. GABRIELSON. That is right, I would think so.
Mr. FLANAGAN. For which you were getting paid-
Mr. GABRIELSON. Yes.

Mr. FLANAGAN (continuing). $25,000 a year?

Mr. GABRIELSON. I would say maybe one hundredth part of 1 percent. I have not taken the time here this morning to tell you what

the real work is in running this company, Carthage Hydrocol. It is not the matter of loans. These loans were all made before I became chairman, and I want to make it perfectly clear that I never received a fee for getting a loan for Carthage Hydrocol, never, under any circumstances.

Senator NIXON. Can I ask a question right there?

Mr. FLANAGAN. Go ahead.

Senator NIXON. Do I understand then that from the period of 1946 until the present time you have been on the payroll of Carthage Hydrocol?

Mr. GABRIELSON. Yes, sir.

Senator NIXON. That your duties have been the duties of president and that of counsel, you and your law firm?

Mr. GABRIELSON. That is right.

Senator NIXON. You said there were other duties than the duties of dealing with the RFC. Did I understand you to say that the great proportion of your work, the greater proportion of your work, were on these other duties, rather than your RFC matters?

Mr. GABRIELSON. Senator, as a matter of time spent on dealing with the RFC since I have been the chairman of the party, I do not think it would involve a hundredth part of 1 percent of the time that has been consumed down there.

Senator NIXON. What I am interested in is this-I am interested in the percentage of time spent on RFC matters, leaving out your party activities, because I know they take some time, too-the percentage of time spent on RFC matters as compared with the percentage of time spent on other matters for which you were paid this fee. Do I understand that your testimony is that that was a very small percent?

Mr. GABRIELSON. It would not be one-half of 1 percent, Senator, because this loan was already made at the time, and the servicing of this loan and the working up of the details-and the RFC have auditors in there all of the time, that comes under the jurisdiction of Mr. Brehm, who is the treasurer of the company. It is only very seldom that I talk to anybody about this loan, never in New York.

Senator NIXON. Go ahead.

Mr. FLANAGAN. On that point again, I just want to clear the record. You probably have an adequate explanation, but I have here in my hand a memorandum dated December 31, 1945, that is, a copy of a memorandum, which is attached to a letter signed by you to the RFC with regard to your legal fees.

Senator MCCARTHY. What year?

Mr. FLANAGAN. 1945. And you submit a bill, and we will not go into the details of that, saying the matter of organization of financing of Carthage Hydrocol, Inc., including the preparation of legal papers, contracts, prospectus, notes, indentures, gas contracts, RFC applications, and so forth; also general conference work pertaining to above, including 138 days' time of Guy George Gabrielson, 32 days' time of Albert Wolfe, that is your associate, and 187 days' time of stenographers.

Can you give us any idea how much of that time was spent in the preparation of matters for the RFC?

(The memorandum dated December 31, 1945, was marked "Exhibit No. 32" and may be found in the appendix on p. 1241.)