Mr. DUNHAM. Boyle's office might have, but not from Mr. Boyle. Senator MCCARTHY. You would not say that you talked to Boyle personally about once a week?

Mr. DUNHAM. No, I do not think even that much. I doubt that if in the 52 or 104 weeks that I was there-it couldn't have been 104 times.

Senator MUNDT. Do we have a copy of the diary?

Mr. FLANAGAN. We have reviewed the diary and taken out every call.

In connection with the Democratic National Committee, we have them right here.

Senator MUNDT. Can you tell us how many there were?

Mr. FLANAGAN. From Boyle personally?

Senator MUNDT. Yes. It would be hard for Mr. Dunham to remember them.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Let me check them.

Senator MCCARTHY. While you are checking: Your feeling was that Boyle never asked you to do anything that you considered improper?

Mr. DUNHAM. That is perfectly true, Senator. Let me explain one thing that might clarify your thinking in this: I had two or three things that I wanted to ask Mr. Boyle to do. One of the problems discussed when these men would get together was to get men to come to Washington to work. I knew a half dozen men that I thought should be here working. I introduced them to Mr. Boyle and would say: "When are you going to be here? I want to bring fellows like Charles Sorenson down," who are wealthy and retired, with a lot of ability.

I thought they ought to be in Government service. Many times I called Mr. Boyle. I am sure I bothered him more than he did me, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. Let me ask you this: A number of applications you had for loans-of course many of them you had to turn down. Would you give us roughly a picture of the type of pressure brought upon you from time to time by anyone? I do not mean necessarily people in Government.

Mr. DUNHAM. I think I can clarify your thinking on that, too. Bear in mind, when I make this statement, that all my life I have loaned money. That has been my job always.

What you might regard as pressure I wouldn't regard as pressure. I mean by that that when I was in a bank, if a fellow came in and wanted a loan, it was not uncommon for him to say: "Listen, I have got to have it. Who do I know that you know," and all the pressure that you can think of.

If you yield to those pressures you shouldn't loan money.

I felt that people, when I was with the RFC, had a perfect right to come into my office, and if necessary pound the desk and say: "This is a good loan; you don't know what you are talking about." If I accepted their viewpoint 1 didn't belong there.

Senator MCCARTHY. While I can understand the applicant pounding the desk or his lawyer pounding the desk, as a normal thing, when he comes in to represent a client, how about people in the administration or the Senate or the House? Did you have any of that kind of desk pounding?

Mr. DUNHAM. I had a number of calls but never have I had a call from anybody who said: "This is something we want you to do." That I have never experienced.

I received a call from a very important person at the White House. He said, "We are interested in a particular loan." I said, "I think that loan is illegal, and I would vote against it."

I was never criticized for that. The loan wasn't made. It did turn out to be not the type of thing we should do.

He didn't say, "Right or wrong, I want you to do this." He just wanted to be sure it had attention. I was never penalized in any way for saying, "I don't believe that loan is legal, and I will not vote for it." Senator HOEY. Mr. Dunham, in order to clarify this a little bit, the chief counsel, Mr. Flanagan, has checked. There appears to be nine calls that Mr. Boyle made to you directly in the 2 years.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Either he called you or you called him.
Senator HOEY. Suppose he reads them to you to verify it.

Mr. FLANAGAN. To further clarify the record, I might say that we reviewed the file for any calls regarding American Lithofold. There was only one call which we discussed on the record here.

Back to these calls from Mr. Boyle: The first call is May 9, 1949. "Mr. William Boyle telephoned to make appointment for Mr. George Tribble-T-r-i-b-b-l-e-to call on Mr. Dunham tomorrow at 11:30." Mr. DUNHAM. I remember that.

Senator HOEY. Do you remember what that was about?

Mr. DUNHAM. Yes, sir, I do.

Senator HOEY. You need not go into detail. Was it about a loan? Mr. DUNHAM. No, sir. He wanted to be director of an insurance company that the RFC controlled.

Senator HOEY. He wanted a position?

Mr. DUNHAM. He wanted a position.
Senator HOEY. Take the next one.

Mr. FLANAGAN. The next call is Friday, May 27, 1949

Telephoned Mr. William Boyle, Democratic National Committee.

Mr. DUNHAM. Friday?

Mr. FLANAGAN. Yes.

Mr. DUNHAM. That was probably a luncheon engagement.
Senator HOEY. You telephoned him?

Mr. DUNHAM. I tried to make my luncheon engagements on Friday because that was the day that we did not have board meetings.

Senator MCCARTHY. It would be pretty difficult for him to remember 2 years ago.

Senator HOEY. That is right. I thought we would get as much clarification as we can.

Next?

Mr. FLANAGAN. Wednesday, June 1, 1949

Also telephoned Mr. Boyle re luncheon, Friday.

Mr. DUNHAM. That is possible. On one or two occasions I arranged with Mr. Boyle to go to lunch with these people that I wanted him

to meet.

One was a man named Mr. Burns of Detroit, and one other.

Senator HOEY. I just wanted to distinguish what sort of business.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Wednesday, June 8, 1949—

Mr. William Boyle telephoned, made appointment for Mr. George Jetter to see Mr. Dunham.

Mr. DUNHAM. Jetter?

Mr. FLANAGAN (reading):

Mr. Jetter came in at 2:30.

Mr. DUNHAM. I remember that.

Senator HOEY. Was that with reference to a loan?

Mr. DUNHAM. Yes. Mr. Jetter came in and had what I thought was an impractical idea.

Senator HOEY. We won't go into details.

Mr. DUNHAM. He since developed into a good friend. I told him it was an impractical idea, and he walked out.

Mr. FLANAGAN. October 13, 1949, Thursday

Mr. William Boyle telephoned re George Tribble. Mr. Dunham said he would call Mr. Hise Monday and discuss Mr. Tribble's situation.

Mr. DUNHAM. That is right. The same thing exactly.

Senator HOEY. Was that about the loan?

Mr. DUNHAM. No. The same thing exactly, about the insurance company.

Senator HOEY. About a position?

Mr. DUNHAM. That is right.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Tuesday, October 25, 1949

Telephoned Mr. Bill Boyle-at home ill.

Senator HOEY. It seems you telephoned him at his home.

Mr. DUNHAM. I have no recollection of what that would be about. I apparently didn't reach him.

Senator HOEY. That is some call you put in for him?

Mr. DUNHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Thursday, February 9, 1950

Mr. Turney Gratz telephoned. Made appointment for Mr. Sam Morris, national committeeman from Arizona, to see Mr. Dunham. Mr. Bill Boyle, Democratic chairman, also telephoned to tell Mr. Dunham that Mr. Morris is a very close friend of his and the purpose of his call is to talk with Mr. Dunham re the Copper City Mining Co. of Gila County, Ariz. He said the first loan these people had from the RFC in the amount of $3,000,000 has already been paid. Mr. Morris called on Mr. Dunham. Mr. Willett was present for a short while. Mr. Dunham finally took Mr. Morris to Mr. Mulligan's office.

Mr. DUNHAM. That is right. I remember that very well. Mr. Morris I had never known before. He was a native of Arizona. Senator HOEY. We will have to suspend for a few moments to vote. We will come right back.

(Recess taken.)

Senator HOEY. You may proceed.

Mr. DUNHAM. He was interested in a loan to a copper company that had a rather unique record in its association with the RFC. During the last World War the RFC took their management and furnished the money to develop a copper mine that was very successful. The copper mine was running out the copper and their problem was to develop a new mine that they had all ready, analyzed, and the prospects were good and all that.

Senator HOEY. Mr. Dunham, you need not go into the details of it. They wanted a loan?

Mr. DUNHAM. It had to do with a copper mine loan, yes, sir. It was afterward granted.

Senator HOEY. Next?

Mr. FLANAGAN. Wednesday, July 12, 1950—

Mr. Bill Boyle's office telephoned. Made appointment for Leo B. Parker, of Parker and Knipmeyer, attorneys, Kansas City, Mo., to see Mr. Dunham at 3 o'clock. Talked with Mr. Dunham re Preferred Accident.

We can't tell whether Mr. Boyle called or his office. It looks like merely his office called.

Mr. DUNHAM. I don't know. I would be more inclined to think that someone in his office called about that. The Preferred Accident is again this insurance company. They wanted to report a situation that seemed bad in Chicago. We were deeply interested in what they wanted to talk about. They just wanted to discuss the subject. Senator HOEY. That was what you discussed? Mr. DUNHAM. That is right. No loan.

Mr. FLANAGAN. Thursday, July 19, 1950—

Mr. Bill Boyle telephoned re possibility of appointing Leo B. Parker to the board of Preferred Accident. Said he was most anxious to become associated with Preferred in that capacity and asked Mr. Dunham to see what he could do to bring that about. Mr. Dunham stated that he would start working on it immediately.

Mr. DUNHAM. I did. That was referred to the Chairman. That is as far as I know.

Senator HOEY. That was with reference to some appointment? Mr. DUNHAM. That was with reference to an appointment.

Senator HOEY. Mr. Dunham, these nine incidents where either Mr. Boyle or somebody from his office called you or you called him, are those the only incidents that you remember during the 2 years that you had contact with Mr. Boyle or with his office?

Mr. DUNHAM. Yes, sir.

Senator HOEY. I believe you stated this morning, before you came in, Senator, that you did not have any calls from Mr. Boyle about the American Lithofold.

Mr. DUNHAM. I don't remember a single call about that, no, sir, from Mr. Boyle.

Senator HOEY. Anyway, your diary shows, and you have no recollection of any other calls except those shown in your diary? Mr. DUNHAM. That is right.

Senator HOEY. Any other questions?

Senator MCCLELLAN. I believe you have already stated that there was nothing unusual about Members of Congress, Members of the Senate, calling and making appointments for constituents who were known applicants?

Mr. DUNIAM. Senator, this may sound silly to you, but I would have felt badly if they hadn't. I would have felt that I was neglect ing my duties if I couldn't do that.

Senator Ferguson called me constantly. He would say: "Walter, what can you do for this fellow?"

"Send him down, let me talk to him."

Senator MCCLELLAN. That practice is followed with bankers, with anybody who loans money.

Mr. DUNHAM. You can't run the RFC without being allowed to do that, because I just can't see any reason why a director shouldn't be available to every Member of Congress for anything, and if a director responds to bad influence he shouldn't be there.

Senator MCCLELLAN. The right sort of a Member of Congress is not going to try to apply the bad influence.

Mr. DUNHAM. I have never had a Member of Congress say to me, "This is something, my boy, that you have to do." I would have resented it. They were too smart to say it.

I think it demonstrates a pretty high attitude toward a Government department. I can say that after 2 years of pretty intensive work down here.

Senator MCCLELLAN. I have one other question to keep this record straight. The fact that a loan application is submitted and turned down does not necessarily mean that there is no merit in the application, or in the desire for a loan; but is it not true that many times they reach your office without being adequately prepared to present their true merits?

Mr. DUNHAM. Very true. That often happens. I will tell you onother thing that often happens

Senator MCCLELLAN. Does that not often happen also with bankers?

Mr. DUNHAM. Certainly. They just drag on for months sometimes.

Senator MCCLELLAN. Is it not also true that in the private banking business, in the loaning business, you frequently take an applicant and advise him how to get his application in form where the bank would consider it, where the board of directors would consider it?

Mr. DUNHAM. That is perfectly true. It is so true.

Senator MCCLELLAN. That was also true, and a practice, and a proper one I should assume, in the RFC?

Mr. DUNHAM. No question about it.

Senator MCCLELLAN. I do not mean that that would justify the board making every loan it made.

Mr. DUNHAM. No, but you do try.

Senator MCCLELLAN. This is a service institution, I mean the RFC is a service agency to those who are eligible and come within the law, that the agencies serve. I would see nothing wrong, and I am sure that was at least the general practice there, if an applicant, a citizen, a corporation, presented an application, and it had not been worked up properly to reflect the true picture, or it was not adequate to support the amount requested, that there were negotiations and efforts made to conciliate the whole matter and reconcile it and bring it into form where it would present the case so that the Board could actually consider it and act on it favorably if the facts justified it.

Mr. DUNHAM. Very true. This often happens: A man will come in and he will have quite a sizeable debt. We will say to him, “You qualify in all respects, except we would like, say, $25,000 of your debtors to stand aside until after the RFC is paid.

He will come back and say, "I can only get $20,000." You negotiate those things. They are just a normal procedure. There is nothing wrong about that.