Senator MCCLELLAN. If Mr. Dunham was contacted 200 times over a period of 2 years, then apparently you were not contacted as often as some of the other members by the national committee, were you? Mr. WILLETT. From that record, I wasn't. I didn't know Mr. Dunham had been contacted that many times.

Senator MCCLELLAN. Dunham is the Republican member and it seems they concentrated on him; is that correct?

Assuming that the 200 contacts were made according to Dunham's diary or office record were correct, according to yours, which I checked hurriedly and which may not be absolutely accurate, you were contacted some 70 times during a similar period.

Mr. WILLETT. I was on the board a little longer.

Senator MCCLELLAN. What I am trying to develop here is the cold facts about the activities of the Democratic National Committee contacting the RFC with reference to loans. If this is correct, 200 times with Dunham and 70 times with you, it seems to me they were contacting some of you daily about loans and about applications. Mr. WILLETT. Could be.

Senator MCCLELLAN. Could be?

Mr. WILLETT. Could be; yes, sir. I do not remember how many times they contacted me, sir.

Senator MCCLELLAN. Did it ever occur to you that the Democratic National Committee representatives were unduly active and solicitous about this particular agency?

Mr. WILLETT. No, never did, Senator, because all they ever did was make appointments or bring someone over to see us.

Senator MCCLELLAN. That isn't all Merl Young did. He came over to see you quite often, didn't he?

Mr. WILLETT. Not on loans, except the Lustron case.

Senator MCCLELLAN. Didn't he come to see you on loans and applications, according to your records, and talk to you about loans? Mr. WILLETT. I do not think so.

Senator McCLELLAN. How about Neal Roach?

Mr. WILLETT. Neal Roche brought a lot of people in; yes.
Senator MCCLELLAN. Representing the national committee?
Mr. WILLETT. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCLELLAN. He didn't only make the appointment, but he came over with them?

Mr. WILLETT. Brought them in.

Senator MCMILLAN. Took an interest in their application?

Mr. WILLETT. No, I wouldn't say took an interest in it. I want to be fair to Neal Roach.

Senator MCCLELLAN. You mean he would come over without any interest?

Mr. WILLETT. Yes.

May I interrupt you just a minute?

Senator MCCLELLAN. If you will answer me.

Mr. WILLETT. I would like to tell you what I told Mr. Flanagan the other day, that it didn't seem unusual to me. People come to Washington and it takes them days to get to the proper party they want to see. They have to go to your office, to their Congressman's office or to the Democratic Committee or to the Republican Committee. Apparently none ever went to the Republican Committee.

Senator NIXON. That is probably because they found they got better action on RFC loan through establishing their contacts through the Democratic National Committee; is that correct?

Mr. WILLETT. No, sir.

Senator NIXON. You mean

Mr. WILLETT. If you do not mind my saying, one of the biggest loans and fees we paid was to a Republican.

Senator NIXON. That is right. I know this racket, too. On that point, that loan was made, that fee was paid, before Mr. Gabrielson was national chairman.

Mr. WILLETT. That is correct.

Senator NIXON. You would want the record to show that.
Mr. WILLETT. That is right.

Senator NIXON. A lot of the loans made are made to Republicans.
Mr. WILLETT. I hope so.

Senator NIXON. I am not questioning even the propriety of going to the Democratic National Committee.

Mr. WILLETT. I know you are not.

Senator NIXON. But I am interested in why the disparity. Is it because borrowers, whether they be Republicans or Democrats, had learned that the way to a loan was to go through a member of the Democratic National Committee or an employee of the Democratic National Committee? That is really the gist of this inquiry. That is what we are trying to find out.

Mr. WILLETT. That could be. I wouldn't know.

Senator NIXON. Why did the people do this if it was only for the purpose of an introduction? Someone from the Republican National Committee knew where the RFC was. They knew the members of the Board of Directors of the RFC. I assume the employees of the Republican National Committee are that bright.

Mr. WILLETT. I think the people who went there made a mistake. They should have gone to their Congressman or Senator, because they get better treatment than from the Democratic National Committee.

Senator NIXON. I know we give them wonderful treatment. The question is, would they get better action?

Mr. WILLETT. Yes; from the Hill they would.

Senator NIXON. What about the American Lithofold Co.?

Mr. WILLETT. Maybe they came over here..

Senator NIXON. As far as they were concerned, they didn't get it from any action on the Hill, did they?

Mr. WILLETT. Not to my knowledge, they didn't. No one has ever said anything about the quality of this loan. I wonder if I could tell you, inasmuch as the first time the loan came to the Board of Directors, why I voted for it. I voted for it-I do not remember any discussion, but after hearing Mr. Williams talking over here and reading some of the reports during the last 2 weeks, I would like to tell you why it was a good loan and had been a good loan. The loan was adequately secured according to even the agency's loan value placed on the collateral. There were some bad factors. There are in all loans. Mr. Kraft told me the other day, when I asked him why the agency had not reduced the withdrawals of the officials of this company, that they had before the application reached Washington.

The prospects of the company were all right because they had previously made money. I understood from Mr. Blauner a couple of weeks ago that the company made $100,000 last year.

Another thing that hasn't been taken into consideration

Senator MCCLELLAN. Government contracts?

Mr. WILLETT. I do not know what contracts or how they got them. Senator NIXON. So we can get the record clear on that point, too, the solvency of this company has been pretty much determined and has been related to the amount of Government contracts that it has been able to get; isn't that correct?

Mr. WILLETT. From what I have heard, that is correct, but I do not know anything about that. I do not think we knew anything about who the contracts were from, how they were getting them.

Senator HOEY. At this juncture, it ought to appear in the record that this concern did have large Government contracts in World War II and had a big business with the Government then and also had contracts with the Government now and the evidence before us developed that more than two-thirds or three-fourths of all these contracts were gotten by competitive bidding. I think we have gone far afield in a good many of these analyses, but it is good to develop it fully.

Relating to a loan, one of the best evidences in justification of what you say about being good loans is that it was paid in full-principal and interest-before it was due, so the Government didn't lose a single cent by this loan in any way.

Mr. WILLETT. I was going to bring that up. They borrowed $600,000. The loan was more than that from the Smaller War Plants, but the limit was $600,000. When they came in to see us the loan had been reduced to $157,000, even with these heavy withdrawals. We always do this when they have heavy withdrawals and are bleeding, so to speak, the company. We reduce their withdrawals to a low limit. I understood from Mr. Williams when we reduced the withdrawals on one of these loans, two of the officers resigned. If they didn't want to accept that and make money and pay us off, then they didn't have to take the loan.

I am awfully sorry to interrupt you on that.

Senator HOEY. Senator McClellan, you may proceed.

Senator MCCLELLAN. Was there any information that came to you at the time Mr. Roach and Mr. Young and others I named-Mr. Gratz-connected with the Democratic committee-they were charging a fee for their services in connection with any of these applications that the RFC was considering and they were contacting you about? Mr. WILLETT. No, sir. If they were, I presume they wouldn't tell me about it.

Senator MCCLELLAN. You didn't inquire into that?
Mr. WILLETT. No, sir.

Senator MCCLELLAN. When people come down there with an applicant, do they not usually state they are the attorney, if they represent him as such?

Mr. WILLETT. They usually state what capacity, but I knew that Neal Roach and Gratz were from the Democratic National Committee, so they didn't have to state that.

Senator MCCLELLAN. In the instance of Mr. Finnegan coming down there-Judge Finnegan, as you refer to him-he stated at that time that he represented

Mr. WILLETT. He must have, Senator. I tried to remember what he told me and I cannot remember whether he said attorney, director, or stockholder. As I said before, I thought I had a dim recollection that he said he was a director, but I am not sure about that. I knew, however, he was a judge. If you had asked me that a couple of months ago, as I said, I would have said attorney, but I do not know.

Senator MCCLELLAN. I think the actual thing that occurs from any observation and experience I have had, when they come in as an attorney for a firm or come in with an applicant, the attorney usually identifies himself as such.

Mr. WILLETT. That is correct.

Senator MCCLELLAN. And I would think in that instance Judge Finnegan did identify himself as such or you at least certainly thought he was acting in that capacity.

Mr. WILLETT. I would take that for granted, too, Senator. As I say, I tried to remember. I cannot remember all these cases, what people said. I did try to remember and I cannot remember what he said. If I knew, I would be glad to say. I do not really know what he said. He was a judge to me and I let it go at that.

Senator MCCLELLAN, Mr. Chairman, I believe that these diaries or office dockets or records that we have been inquiring about should be placed in the record in full. We have singled out some things.

Senator HOEY. They are very lengthy. I think you should summarize those matters that you are concerned with.

Senator MCCLELLAN. I would ask the staff to summarize them and place them in the record. They are at loose ends when we just pick out one name here and there. I would like the staff, if it is agreeable to the chairman of the committee, to summarize them.

Senator MUNDT. What we have now is a summary.

Senator HOEY. I have no objection to putting in the full diary, but I think a summary would be all right.

That will be done.

(The summary referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 15" and may be found in the appendix on p. 1219.)

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the witness about a few points in his diary.

Senator NIXON. May I ask a question relating to Senator McClellan's questioning just before you begin?

Senator MUNDT. All right.

Senator NIXON. Senator McClellan questioned you quite extensively about the contacts from the Democratic National Committee.

Mr. WILLETT. Yes, sir.

Senator NIXON. He asked you about several individuals who had contacts with you. Do you recall any other individuals from the Democratic National Committee other than those he named who contacted you in connection with RFC loans? As I recall, he mentioned Mr. Roach, Mr. Gratz, Mr. Boyle, of course, Mr. Young. Do you recall any others?

Mr. WILLETT. Mr. Moore and Mr. Asa Carraway.

Senator NIXON. You haven't mentioned him up to this point.
Mr. WILLETT. No, sir.

Senator NIXON. He is an employee of the Democratic National Com-mittee, too; isn't he?

Mr. WILLETT. He was. I understood he is not now. As a matter of fact, I read in Washington Confidential that he was not.

Senator NIXON. You mean you are vouching for what you read in Washington Confidential?

Mr. WILLETT. No, sir; I am not. That was confirmed the other day by Mr. Flanagan.

Senator NIXON. Confirmed by Mr. Flanagan?

Mr. WILLETT. I think Mr. Flanagan said he wasn't with the Democratic National Committee.

Senator NIXON. He isn't now?

Mr. WILLETT. Now.

Senator NIXON. But at that time he was?

Mr. WILLETT. Yes.

Senator NIXON. Approximately how many contacts would you say he had, 15 or 20?

Mr. WILLETT. I didn't say that. Asa called me as many times as Neal Roach did.

Senator NIXON. He did?

Mr. WILLETT. I would say so.

Senator NIXON. As I recall, Neal Roach called you maybe 27 times or so according to the diary.

Mr. WILLETT. It seems to me it was more than that, but I do not know.

Senator NIXON. His calls were of the same nature as those of Mr. Roach?

Mr. WILLETT. Yes, sir.

Senator NIXON. Just making appointments for individuals interested in RFC loans?

Mr. WILLETT. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Why weren't they listed in the diary?
Mr. WILLETT. I think they are.

Senator MUNDT. Not in the diary as presented to me.

Senator NIXON. Senator Mundt, may I say what you have here before you is not the complete diary. You have the excerpts from it. Senator MUNDT. What I have before me represents itself to be the calls to the Democratic National Committee.

Senator NIXON. When the staff made the study, the staff had a list of the employees of the Democratic National Committee and the name of Carraway did not appear.

Mr. WILLETT. I do not think he was there and that is probably the

reason.

Senator MUNDT. Let's add that.

Senator NIXON. When you add that to the other calls, we get approximately over a hundred calls from the Democratic National Committee to you.

Mr. WILLETT. You will probably find more than that. I wouldn't know how many there were. I wouldn't know how many there were, but there were a lot of calls.

Senator HOEY. In connection with just these questions about all the calls made from the Democratic National Committee and visits from the representatives, at any time did any member of the national committee, representatives or anybody from there, attempt to exert or did exert any influence on you in connection with any loans?