Mr. COWAN, Yes: he said that was the highest.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Over on page 5 we find the statement "There can be no movement" back to normaley. It goes on to say "normal for 1939 meant at least 8.5 million unemployed." You see that?

Mr. COWAN. Yes; I see that statement.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do you mean that when we were at the height of our production in 1939 that that was normal but that we cannot, should not go back to that peak of production?

Mr. COWAN. It means that we had that many unemployed people. Mr. HOFFMAN. Was that normal?

Mr. COWAN. It was normal in 1939 in that it was what was existent at that time.

Mr. HOFFMAN. If we were producing more than we ever had before. how do you account for the 8.5 million unemployed which existed at that time?

Mr. CowAN. I do not believe that we were producing according to our capacity as a Nation.

Mr. HOFFMAN. I was not asking for capacity as a nation; I was talking about total production and unemployment.

Mr. CowAN. We have our rates of pay too low. People did not have enough to purchase the gadgets of industry.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Over on page 1 and in the third paragraph I find these words:

Now in the second week in October reactionary elements in the Congress are becoming bolder every day.

What do you mean by that?

Mr. CowAN. You will have to ask Mr. Murray what he meant by that. I am sure he will be glad to answer your question.

Mr. HOFFMAN. This next sentence, "to put one group of Americans against another," do you believe that?

Mr. CowAN. Yes; I believe that something like that is being done; yes, indeed.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Who is doing it?

Mr. CowAN. The press and other groups.

Mr. HOFFMAN. The press is pretty bad along that line?

Mr. COWAN. Certain parts of the press are pretty bad.

Mr. HOFFMAN. You figure that the press is a sort of disruptive and reactionary force, something which is against what you consider to be the proper interests of this country?

Mr. COWAN. In many instances, some of them are.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do you mean by that PM and the Daily Worker? Mr. COWAN. Yes; and the Congressional Record also falls in that class, and it did when you called me a Communist, in the Seventyeighth Congress.

Mr. HOFFMAN. You did not have a card?

Mr. COWAN. You called me a Communist and you did not even know me.

Mr. HOFFMAN. I do not know you now, except as you appear as a witness.

Mr. COWAN. Well, I am not a Communist, and I never was and never will be.

Mr. HOFFMAN. I am glad to hear you say that, even though you believe in mass picketing.

Mr. COWAN. I believe in mass picketing; there is no connection with the two whatsoever.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Isn't there? That is Communist doctrine, is it not?

Mr. COWAN. No; it is not.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do not the Communists believe in force?

Mr. COWAN. I am not talking about force. I am talking about mass picketing.

Mr. HOFFMAN. What is the difference between your marching shoulder to shoulder and where they just picket in a general way? Mr. CowAN. There is a big difference; there is a big difference. Mr. HOFFMAN. It is merely a difference in degree, is it not?

Mr. CowAN. You ought to go on a picket line somewhere yourself and you would know a little more about it.

Mr. HOFFMAN. It says down here in the fourth paragraph, last sentence, "If enacted into law it will plant our feet in the path to postwar abundance and security." This is referring to the Roosevelt program. Do you subscribe to that?

Mr. COWAN. Yes: I believe in that, and I subscribe to that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Have you anything that you can offer to substantiate that opinion?

Mr. CowAN. I believe if this bill is enacted into law in its original form it will go a long way toward accomplishing that end.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Have you any figures in mind which would support that statement, before you?

Mr. CowAN. No; I do not have any figures. I do not have any figures that would support that in front of me. We could get them. Mr. HOFFMAN. Now you say that the number that will be unemployed this winter will be approximately 8,000,000. Where did you get those figures?

Mr. CowAN. Congressman, it is conceded by the people, most every one that has analyzed and is close to the situation.

Mr. HOFFMAN. We have had, now, up to this time, the program of the President.

Mr. CowAN. Yes; there has been nothing done about it, though. Mr. HOFFMAN. But throughout the last 12 years, have not the ideas of the former President, President Roosevelt, prevailed here pretty thoroughly?

Mr. CowAN. Well, I do not know. I know that we have had a better American life and a better America since 1933 up to this point.

Mr. HOFFMAN. By "better America" you mean better for all the people?

Mr. CowAN. That is true. That is correct.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Then of course the war took many employees off of the rolls.

Mr. CowAN. Yes; many of them were taken away.

Mr. HOFFMAN. So that after this year, including the war, which took 8,000,000 of the established employees, you still have 8,000,000 nemployed, or will have this winter.

Mr. COWAN, Yes; because the Army and Navy canceled their contracts, and they are cutting back, cutting back very rapidly and of Course, unexpectedly.

Mr. HOFFMAN. That does not seem to have been a very successful program, all in all?

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Mr. COWAN. Well, it was better than under President Hoover, a little bit better anyway.

Mr. HOFFMAN. What do you mean by, over on page 2, down in the third paragraph, when you say that they have the right to useful remunerative jobs? I suppose you mean public works which are a benefit to the public as a whole?

Mr. COWAN. That is right, and to America as a whole.

Mr. HOFFMAN. What do you mean by the next word, "remunerative"; how much does that mean, and how do you determine that? Mr. CowAN. That means at a rate of pay that will at least give a decent, minimum standard.

Mr. HOFFMAN. That means above $1,950, and up to $3,075?

One of the gentlemen was asking here about the ability of the Government to pay this. I believe you said you had no idea and no opinion as to how much the Government could provide to create jobs. Mr. CowAN. Oh, I do not know; there are ways and means I know. We will leave that to the Ways and Means Committee.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Does it follow that if the Government provides the jobs it will as a matter of course require the fixing of hours and the rate of wage for the employment?

Mr. CowAN. No; I would not say necessarily, not necessarily so. Mr. HOFFMAN. If that is not so, who is to fix them.

Mr. COWAN. I assume that they would have the right to organization. You would not deny them the right of collective bargaining. I believe that they have collective bargaining in the Tennessee Valley Authority.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Assuming that the 8000,000 will be unemployed this coming winter, if this plan becomes law, and the Government decided to build a highway, say from here to Philadelphia, which would provide 8,000,000 jobs, now, you say the union would have a right to organize and bargain collectively. Assuming that we cannot agree as to wages, working conditions, or hours, who, then, is to fix the hours and conditions under which this work will be done and compensation paid?

Mr. CowAN. I suppose it would be worked out either by compromise or some other method that you would have for that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. But at the moment we are threatened throughout the Nation with a demand for a so-called 30 percent increase in wages-I am not saying they are not entitled to 30 percent or 50 percent, and many say they will not work unless the increase is granted. If we go ahead and create these 8,000,000 jobs, or whatever number is needed, there must be some final authority empowered to fix wages, hours, and working conditions, must there not? Mr. CowAN. I think it could be worked out all right.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a law on the statute books which says that the men must be paid according to the prevailing wages.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Suppose that the prevailing wage does not satisfy the unemployed?

Mr. CowAN. Referring to the wage end, keeping them up to the American standard of living.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do you mean $3,075?

Mr. COWAN. Where they can educate their children, and clothe and feed and buy them a bottle of milk once in a while.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do you mean $3,000 or $1,950 or $2,500, or $2,000? Mr. CowAN. I am not going to mention any specific figure here for the record.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do you not see our difficulty? If it is too much of a problem for you-it is a problem that the Congress will have to undertake-but I think we have to recognize certain factors that enter into it, which makes it extremely difficult. And believe me I am frank when I say that to you.

Mr. CowAN. I believe you are sincere, sir, in saying that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. There is no use in creating jobs unless there is some formula, some assurance that the unemployed are willing to go ahead and work, and you say that you do not believe in compulsory arbitration.

Mr. CowAN. I do not believe in compulsory arbitration; no.

Mr. HOFFMAN. And the employers do not believe in compulsory arbitration either.

Mr. CowAN. I do not believe they do.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Where is the power to protect the general public, if we are going to vote this $24,000,000,000 to create these jobs, and then find these men will not work, where is the safeguard for the taxpayer?

Mr. CowAN. The power of the general public, which would be composed very largely of these millions of men.

Mr. HOFFMAN. I think you are mistaken on your figures.

Mr. COWAN. I do not think so. I think that if you will take those men and their families and relatives you will find they represent a great many people.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Is this going to be fair to the men that work in the factories and at their jobs, when they must pay taxes to support this other program providing work for unemployed?

Mr. CowAN. They are paid 30 cents an hour, they will become a liability and a waste to the Nation.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Where is the money coming from to finance this program, the way it is set up here?

Mr. CowAN. You would have to ask Congressman Rich that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. You can poke fun at that question, nevertheless it is

a question which must be answered.

Mr. CowAN. I think we will find the money.

Mr. HOFFMAN. What did you say, Mr. Cowan?

Mr. COWAN. I said, we will find the money.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Do you think we can or should borrow it?

Mr. CowAN. I think that a large part of it should be taken out of profits of the industry. We hear a lot about the matter of equality of sacrifice in this war, and nobody was going to become rich out of it. In the last World War we had 500 multimillionaires, and this time you will have 25,000 multimillionaires who will come up with their funds; and I think it should come out of their funds, because those are funds which represent blood money.

Mr. HOFFMAN. You have not suffered and I have not suffered. Mr. COWAN. Oh, no, no. Do not say that. I have had a very close relationship to this war. I had five boys overseas. You see, I am just one of the workers.

Mr. HOFFMAN. You and I, we have had that experience, of course, in common with many others.

Mr. COWAN. And one of them will never come back.

Mr. HOFFMAN. That is something which we all regret.

Mr. COWAN. And the other was badly wounded on Guadalcanal, and I still have three boys overseas. I say again, and I say it with emphasis that we have not had equality in sacrifice. These manufacturers have waxed fat, and in safety, and they have not lost anything. Mr. HOFFMAN. Very well. Is it not a fact that the unions have increased their assets to a very large degree?

Mr. COWAN. I do not think so.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Is it not a fact that one of the unions claimed recently that it had, in fact, the CIO, four and a half million dollars to carry on the fight for the 30-percent increase?

Mr. COWAN. Not the CIO, they never made any such statement as that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Can you be sure about that?

Mr. CowAN. Perhaps some affiliates of the CIO may have made such an assertion as that, some such statement.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Organizations affiliated with the CIO. Did it ever occur to you that it might be a good thing and a lesson for our employers for the union to establish a factory and give a demonstration as to what wages should be paid in successful factory operation? Mr. COWAN. It might be better to take over all these plants with the taxpayers' money that built them, and run them.

Mr. HOFFMAN. There is no question but what the CIO has several million dollars, some 42 million dollars or more.

Mr. COWAN. I do not know what we have, I cannot say.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Would it not be a good thing if they would take over with some of the smaller plants and give us a demonstration of how industry should operate?

Mr. COWAN. I am not in a position to talk about that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Why not? That is the crux of the whole thing. The unions claim employers are making excessive profits and denying employees just wages-why not give a demonstration of how a factory should be operated?

Mr. COWAN. I think we should stop on and in the field of collective bargaining and not get away from that.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yet tell the other fellow how to run his business? Mr. CowAN. No; let the employer run his own business.

Mr. HOFFMAN. And tell the other fellow what he can and cannot do?

Mr. CowAN. But have it on the basis of an equality of operation and the right to say what our working conditions shall be and are. Mr. HOFFMAN. In the jobs created by others?

Mr. CowAN. That may very well be true. That is true.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Why not sometime create jobs yourself, would that not be fair?

Mr. COWAN. I am not going to argue with you about the union going into the field of management just now.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Some of your strikes, in fact the present strike, by John L. Lewis' union, is based on the claim that the foremen must be organized by the union, is it not?