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located there. It is a little hard to do in a small rural area because of accessibility of the personnel.

Senator JOHNSTON. Tom, if I may interrupt you, that sounds like a terrific idea to me. Let me ask, how many of you-did you all hear that suggestion? How many of you think that would be a good idea, would you raise your hands?

Senator EAGLETON. Well, Mr. Rooney, if you are here, it looks like you have got a new job.

Senator JOHNSTON. Kirk, we will check with them and we will try to have that done and have social security, I guess that would be the main thing, probably social security would be the main thing. Senator EAGLETON. Occasionally if a person has a problem with the Veteran's Administration, maybe a benefit, widow's benefit or what have you, and it wouldn't be many problems in that area, but that's another example where you want to bring the Government to the people. I know you have got nice Federal buildings downtown, but they aren't the most accessible to everybody. This is a neighborhood situation and we want Government to have some outreach.

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, Senator, as a veteran, I have had very few problems with the Veteran's Administration so far as for medical care. I think I have received adequate medical care.

Senator EAGLETON. You talked earlier and then we will move onwell, Mr. Crawford talked about transportation. You are not against transportation, but you say things have got to be safe before you can use it?

Mr. TAYLOR. Before I can use it; that's right.

Senator EAGLETON. Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

We will move back to you, Mr. Crawford. Do you have something that you would like to add to your remarks of earlier this morning? Mr. CRAWFORD. Senator, the only thing I would like to add is that we get better transportation and the more senior citizens that we can get out, the higher paid, the better program it would be for all and that would make it stand.

Senator EAGLETON. Very good, Mr. Crawford.

Ms. Capers, how about you, ma'am?

Ms. CAPERS. I have been with the program since 1974. I go 5 days a week when it is possible and I have found it to be a very wonderful program in that I have met so many very fine people who know how to do so many very fine things. We have really learned a lot of new things over at the center. We have had our share of sorrows. We have lost many members through death, but we have had many many wonderful occasions. Recently, we went out of town to Franklinton to a fair. We have Christmas parties; we have gone on picnics. As one of our members said, we have learned more about the city since we were senior citizens than we did when we were just living here and working here, because I just happen to be a retiree after working 32 years. I have lived here all my life, but truly, we have visited many many places that we heard about, but just never had time to visit.

Also, about the services, I don't know-maybe our center is a little unusual, but we have had all of the services that this gentleman has been speaking about and, Senator, the service that you suggested we do have someone who comes from the food stamp office occasionally

through the Council on Aging and someone who comes from the social security office and we also have access to legal services.

Right now, I have a lady who is working on a little legal problem for me and that was done through the center. The young people come to the center and if you have a problem, you can talk with them and they write it up and do what they can to help you.

As a matter of fact, my husband recently got glasses through a similar service where they come into the center and find out what help you need and give it to you. I mean, that is just a sample of the many many services that we have enjoyed.

Our big hangup is our home. Like Reverend George said, we are having problems finding funds to repair our homes. The housing, the city housing code, has stated that we have several violations and we just simply don't have the money to get these things and we don't like the idea of getting into a lot of debt that we know we could never pay. So that is really the big problem and I feel that there are many persons who are at our center who are faced with that same type problem.

As to transportation, we have tried in our area to iron that out and we do have transportation. It is not perfect, but we do have a good transportation system. As a matter of fact, we have transportation to and from the meal center. We also have a senior citizens bus that has been provided for us and it takes us on shopping trips to do our marketing. Most of the people in the area have that type of service already, so we are a little ahead there.

I can't think of any other problems that we, as an area, might be experiencing, but I find the program one that should be spread in such a way that every senior citizen in the city could really make use of it.

Senator EAGLETON. Well, you are a remarkably convincing witness, Mrs. Capers, I must say. [Applause.]

If I ever get trouble down here with the law, I am going to hire you as my lawyer. I think you could help me out. Let me ask this question: Do you encounter senior citizens-and I will ask this of any of these members that just don't know about a lot of these programs?

Ms. CAPERS. Absolutely. That is one of the main things that has to happen; other people have to know what is going on. We try to bring in as many people as we can, you know, by word of month, but there must be other better ways to go into those homes and let those senior citizens know what is really there.

Mr. GATES. One thing that should be recognized-when you crease the demand, you have to be able to come up with the supply. Senator EAGLETON. Sure. Let me ask the lady about this program back there. What is your name?

Ms. PILLAULT. My name is Pillault.

Senator EAGLETON. How do you spell that last name?
Ms. PILLAULT. P-i-l-l-a-u-l-t.

Senator EAGLETON. As I have been here today, and we have had the lunch, your physical facilities are such you probably could not take additional participants because of the limitations of space: would that be a factor?

MS. PILLAULT. I can handle the parties if I can get more meals.

Senator EAGLETON. What would you have, two sittings?

Ms. PILLAULT. We rotate because while one is eating, the other ones are enjoying themselves and then when one is finished, they leave the room like we did today.

Senator EAGLETON. Have you ever been in a situation where you have had to turn people away?

MS. PILLAULT. NO; we always squeeze them in.

Senator EAGLETON. You can squeeze a few more in? This lady over here wanted to say something. Can you give your name, please, ma'am.

MS. DENNERY. Joyce Dennery. I am president of the New Orleans Council

Senator EAGLETON. Spell your last name for this man here.

MS. DENNERY. D-e-n-n-e-r-y. I wanted to make a comment on the meals and the facilities and what George Gates said about supply and demand. One of the things that we are focusing on is not only meals, but activities-as this lady said, to have more resources tying in some with our Outreach program. There is transportation for some of the people to the meal center, but this is based on the title XX recipients who must meet financial need. There are many people who need more activities, more meal centers, more transportation, who are a little above the SSI level, so these people don't qualify. But if we did have more meals, we would also want to incorporate more of the other activities, not just food. So I wanted to make that comment. There are many things possible, but we also have to have more money, more planning, and more resources in general.

Senator EAGLETON. Thank you. I am going to move on to the other members of the panel and then we will hear from other people as well, but I want to get through the panel first.

Ms. PILLAULT. Can I say one other thing?

Senator EAGLETON. Yes, ma'am.

Ms. PILLAULT. In this center where we eat here, every center is different. We need more transportation for our people. The transportation has been based on the handicapped profits, not on handicapped people, and I feel everybody should get to our location-but we are very limited on that.

We need transportation to go grocery shopping, to make our little trips. You see, the lady who talked before, they have their own bus they have been given through title XX. We don't have those benefits and we would like to have it, too, because I think all the senior citizens are the same. Sometimes they get jealous one of the other.

Senator EAGLETON. Now, I am going to call on Elizabeth Williamson, who has been very patient. Just stay there where you are and you give us your observations about this nutrition center, what you think could be done better or whatever comment you may have.

MS. WILLIAMSON. Well, I have been going to this meal center ever since it opened and it is one of the greatest things that ever happened. The transportation is grand, but just like she said, we need more transportation to go shopping and, you know, go to the grocery stores, and things like that. We do work, like she said, in my meal center. I go to a day care center at King's House, and we have about the same things she said she has and it really helped me plenty. I don't know what else to say.

Senator EAGLETON. Well, that's very good and well said and we are appreciative. [Applause.]

Ms. Chapoit, am I pronouncing that right? How are you today? Ms. CHAPOIT. I am fine, thank you. Well, this is a wonderful center and everybody cooperates just wonderfully and everybody is just lively. I think that when you all say transportation, I am one hit by the transportation problem because I don't live in the neighborhood. I live on Pontchartrain Boulevard so I have to come here every day by the bus.

Like today, I brought a whole lot of stuff that I need. I am supposed to be the seamstress here and I had to bring everything by the bus, so I am kind of handicapped and you all can't help me about that, but our meals are delicious. There are several that told me today that if I am going to get up and talk, I must make a report on that. They said that the rice and cheese, nobody likes it. [Applause.]

Then we have a macaroni which is very often and that macaroni, it is so cold we don't know what it is. We think that is terrible. Am I right? [Applause.]

Then they said that the corn is too hard and we are too old; we can't eat the corn.

But everybody is lovely; Kathleen is lovely. Everybody that is here has been wonderful to each other and I can complain because I am the seamstress.

Everything is lovely and this is a wonderful center and we thank you all a million for giving it to us. [Applause.]

Mr. GATES. Senator Eagleton, I might point out that the rice and cheese are USDA commodities.

Senator EAGLETON. Mr. Gates properly points out that part of the reason you are inundated with rice and cheese, these are USDAU.S. Department of Agriculture-purchases that are made and they store these items and they want to move some of these items out.

Ms. CHAPOIT. It's wasted. It is all thrown in the garbage. Senator JOHNSTON. We will try to cut out the cheese, but the rice we want to keep eating because we grow that in Louisiana. Mr. TAYLOR. That stringy chicken, yeah-they got rid of that. Senator EAGLETON. All right.

Next, we have Mr. Albert Cooper.

STATEMENT OF ALBERT COOPER, MEMBER, ADVISORY COUNCIL OF
THE AREA AGENCY ON AGING

Mr. COOPER. I am not a member of the center. I would like to make a statement because there are some things that have not been covered

that I think need be.

Senator EAGLETON. Good. This is the time.

Mr. COOPER. I am Albert Cooper and I am retired. I am a member of the advisory council of the Area Agency on Aging. I do volun teer work in several different areas and I am mainly concerned that the programs are causing the elderly people to become in an adversary condition.

Senator EAGLETON. Explain that, sir.
Mr. COOPER. All right, sir.

We are having to compete with children. We are having to compete with all other programs and we are saying, "Give us this, give us this, give us this," and people are becoming tired of hearing this. I have had one State representative state that the medicare and medicaid programs were a Government giveaway. Goodness, there are people that could have no medical care at all if it wasn't for these programs, yet here is an elected representative stating that this is a Government giveaway.

Now, I feel like that there needs to be some type of thing addressed that would try to remove this from us. We are not asking more than we deserve. In my particular case, I worked for 32 years and 7 months. I have contributed certainly something to the development of this country, and I believe that the country does have some responsibility toward me.

Transportation, where I live-where I live there is none. I live in an unincorporated area in another parish and there is literally no public transportation whatsoever. I believe in my own heard that public transportation is a public responsibility, that there should be some means provided for people to get around and get where they want to go.

Now, another thing that bothers me is legislation that causes me or us to pay a higher utility bill and then you subsequently turn around and subsidize us in paying this utility bill and we are called welfare cases. That is literally what is happening and that is not right. There should be some means of keeping us from having to pay the high utility bills in the first place.

I don't know what to do. I am sure that you have heard this same type of thing from a lot of different people, but it seems to me that there should be some way in which we could gain support, and I mean general support for the types of things that are needed. The needs of the elderly are not greatly different from the needs of anyone else. We are all human beings, and we all have the same needs and desires and wants. If you specialize in a particular area and point this out, then it is an adverse reaction. The people in this country are getting tired. Why do you think the man put on a $250 rebate amendment, of rebate for sending people to college? That is simply because he wanted to give or help out the people who are having to support colleges or send their children to colleges.

Now, this has nothing to do with the actual bill that was before the thing. To me, it didn't.

Senator EAGLETON. You are absolutely right.

Mr. COOPER. It was taken out, but I can't believe that this has to go on where we are constantly fighting for everything that we, in our opinion, deserve.

Senator EAGLETON. Let me comment in part on what you said, Mr. Cooper. I think your testimony has been excellent and we have heard some complaints before, but you and Ms. Capers summarized it as well as I have heard. Here is a very real problem, and I don't want to frighten anybody when I mention it, but it is a fact of life.

I have been in the Senate 9 years. That's not very long in the scheme of things, but 9 years. I am guessing that the first year that I came to the Senate, that was back in 1968 and 1969, really. I am guessing that perhaps in the whole year, we didn't get 50 letters

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