Mr. DINGELL. We are giving it both to Interior and to the corps. Mr. KEITH. Everybody wants to have one final arbiter. Mr. DINGELL. It is always desirable. It is a question whether the Corps of Engineers would ever stand still or the Interior Department, to exercise the power of navigation, and there is a question whether the Interior Department would be fully satisfied if the power were exercised by the corps. Previous to about 6 or 7 years ago, there have been some outrageous experiences with the corps. Since that time we have had a fine relationship. But previous to that we had a very, very poor relationship. Mr. KEITH. We had the same problems and the same current status. We also had our problems with Interior. I would like now to know, if you could tell me, if the main constitutional authority we can find thus far is under the commerce laws on navigation? It seems to me that if the hearing record shows that as the motivating force of this committee, then we are not helping our cause. We can turn to something else in the Constitution. I think we should rather find that as a basis. Can you help me in this? Mr. TAACK. Mr. Congressman, I am an administrator, not an attorney, administrator of the submerged lands problems of Michigan. I might say the chairman was correct. We have much improved coordination with the Corps of Engineers and we have a good relationship with the Department of the Interior. The actual ownership here of bottom lands, of course, I think we all agreed, rests within the States of the Great Lakes. The question of the power of the Congress to regulate commerce and navigation is not at issue here at all, I think, but we do feel that the States have recognized this problem, that this committee is dealing with. We do feel that the intent here is excellent. We are quite proud of our accomplishments in protecting these things that this committee values so highly and we think that we can do this without actually requiring an additional permit system. That is what our own feeling is in this matter. Mr. DINGELL. Let me perhaps shift questions a little bit and ask, How would you view some strengthening of the Fisheries and Wildlife Coordination Act as a possible solution of the differences we have with this section 12? Mr. GASLAY. What were the strengthening features specifically? Mr. DINGELL. I have nothing specific in mind. How would we accomplish this? Mr. GASLAY. This is difficult to appraise from our point of view. We feel we now have adequate control through our own State laws supplementing the Corps' responsibility with the commerce aspect. With respect to Michigan's position, there is no need to additional legislation. So perhaps we are not a good party to direct that question to. Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Pelly. Mr. PELLY. No questions. Mr. DINGELL. Gentlemen, if you have any thoughts on that that you would like to suggest or any thoughts you would like to submit to the committee, they will be appreciated. Your presence today has been most helpful. Mr. GASLAY. Thank you, sir. (The following letter was subsequently submitted to the subcommittee:) Hon. JOHN D. DINGELL, MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, Lansing, March 16, 1967. Chairman, Subcommittee on Fisheries and Wildlife, DEAR REPRESENTATIVE DINGELL: The Michigan Department of Conservation presented testimony on March 8, 1967, on H.R. 25 and companion bills which would preserve and protect the important estuarine areas of the nation. We now wish to supplement this testimony with specific recommendations for amendments to H.R. 25 which, in our judgment, will improve the bill. They are as follows: Section 10 (a) Strike out the words, "by regulation" on line 4. page 10. (b) Strike out the words, "to the extent applicable" on line 7, page 10. (c) Strike out the words, "fish and wildlife management" on line 10, page 10. Section 12. Delete the entire section and substitute the following: (a) The Secretary of the Interior shall, in cooperation with each State, adopt mutually acceptable standards for State control of dredging, filling or excavation work within any estuary of the United States or in the Great Lakes and connecting waterways. Such standards shall recognize private and public uses, including but not limited to commercial and industrial installations, sport and commercial fisheries, wildlife, esthetics and recreational. The appropriate State agency shall, within two (2) years, promulgate rules and regulations to control dredging, filling and excavation work consistent with the standards as mutually agreed upon by the Secretary and the State. (b) The standards mutually agreed upon by the Secretary and the States shall not be inconsistent with existing State laws relating to waters and submerged lands. (c) No person may conduct any dredging, filling or excavation work within any estuary in the United States or in the Great Lakes and connecting waters unless rules and regulations have been promulgated by the responsible State agency. In the absence of such State rules and regulations the work must be mutually acceptable to the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of the Army and consistent with any standards under this Act that have been adopted by the Secretary of the Interior and the States. (d) The requirements of this section shall not obviate the necessity of securing permits as may be required by the Army Corps of Engineers under applicable laws relating to interstate commerce and navigation. (e) In carrying out the provisions of this section, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to conduct, in cooperation with the States, directly or by contract. such studies and investigations as are deemed mutually desirable and to accept and use public funds appropriated for this purpose by the United States or the State. (f) Any person who knowingly violates any provisions of this section or any regulation issued thereunder shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 and not more than $2.500 or by imprisonment of not more than one year, or both, and the Secretary of the Interior may request the Attorney General to seek relief to abate any actual or threatened violation; provided that each State may, in the absence of action by the Secretary, proceed to enforce its own applicable statutory provisions and rules and regulations promulgated and seek appropriate relief to abate any actual or threat of violation. (g) For the purposes of this section, the term "person" means any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or municipality. The provisions of this section shall be effective one hundred and eighty days after the date of enactment. Section 13 (a) Strike out all of sub-section. (b) And insert in lieu thereof the following: "The term estuary means a partially enclosed coastal body of water having a free connection with the open sea and within which the sea water is measurably diluted with fresh water derived from land drainage." If these amendments can be incorporated in H.R. 25, the Michigan Department of Conservation would enthusiastically endorse this legislation as a workable plan for resolving a critical problem in the management of our natural resources. We appreciate and are grateful for your courtesy in allowing us to present our views on this important matter. Sincerely, RALPH A. MACMULLEN, Director. Mr. DINGELL. The next witnesses are from the Izaak Walton League of America. We have Mr. Robert Dennis who is appearing for Mr. Joseph Penfold, conservation director; Malcolm Johnston, president of the Massachusetts division; Mr. J. F. Sayre, president of the Cape May County chapter in New Jersey; Mr. Ivan Sims, president of the Maryland division; and Mr. James Redford, Jr., president of the Florida Division of the Izaak Walton League of America. The Chair is happy to welcome you gentlemen today. STATEMENT OF ROBERT DENNIS, APPEARING FOR JOSEPH PENFOLD, CONSERVATION DIRECTOR Mr. DENNIS. I am Robert T. Dennis, assistant conservation director of the league. Mr. Penfold had to catch a plane and was unable to be here. We ask that his statement be printed in full in the record. Mr. DINGELL. Without objection, it is so ordered. (The document referred to follows:) STATEMENT OF J. W. PENFOLD, CONSERVATION DIRECTOR, IZAAK WALTON LEAGUE OF AMERICA Mr. Chairman, I am J. W. Penfold, Conservation Director of the Izaak Walton League of America. The League is a nationwide organization of citizens dedicated to the wise and proper management and use of our total natural resources base. Historically, our interest has focused on water and related resources. We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of America's estuaries. The Izaak Walton League supports H.R. 25. It is another of the fundamental conservation measures which have come before Congress in recent years. Mr. Chairman, estuaries are valuable economically, ecologically and esthetically. These irreplaceable areas and the resources they support are of critical importance to the Nation. Estuaries are being destroyed at an accelerating pace by ship channels, industrial developments, subdivisions, resorts, and pollution. The thin line along our coasts known as the estuarine zone is, as a whole, a national natural resource. Problems affecting it, and opportunities provided by it, require attention on a national basis. Enactment of H.R. 25 would assure such attention. Other witnesses before this subcommittee are better able than we to present in detail the nationwide facts and statistics about estuaries, their values, and their destruction. IWLA members know estuaries best at the community, county, and state level-our panel will discuss them from that viewpoint. Of course, we are aware that we have already lost something like 7% of the original estuarine area of the 48 contiguous states. We have seen figures indicating that certain estuaries produce shellfish yields valued at $4,000 and more per acre per year. We know that many species of marine and anadromous fish require existence of estuaries-and that the continental waterfowl population depends upon them. We have read the recommendations about estuaries advanced by the Environmental Pollution Panel of the President's Science Advisory Committee-recom mendations which in some respects go beyond the provisions of the legislation being considered here today. The League believes that H.R. 25 would protect our estuarine resourcesand that it would do so in comprehensive fashion, involving all levels of government and, ultimately, the private sector. As we see it, H.R. 25 carries two basic provisions First, Sections 1 and 2 would set a national estuarine policy which does not currently exist, focus national attention on a serious problem, and initiate a nationwide study of that problem. Section 2 obviously intends that the study shall not be all-Federal, that State and local governments may become involved to the full extent of their interest and ability. But, properly, Section 2 authorizes the Secretary of the Interior to proceed should other levels of government not care to participate. The Section 2 study appears basically oriented towards identification of estuarine areas which should be preserved by the public, with appropriate emphasis on the Federal role. The Izaak Walton League believes, however, that the study will do far more than identify potential Federal acquisition areas-it will encourage Federal and State agencies alike to undertake a broadly penetrating look at the full estuarine picture. In short, we feel that Section 2 will help the States gear up to shoulder a responsibility long overlooked—and that this may be its greatest benefit. Sections 3 through 11 seem to us subsidiary to Sections 1 and 2. In our view, they are guidelines to agencies at all levels of government responsible for doing something about estuaries. Fundamentally, of course, they apply only to handling of areas ultimately designated as National Estuarine Areas. These Sections, however, are clearly suggestive of what might be done, and they clearly express the intention that estuarine conservation should not be an all-Federal job. Again and again, they invite broad-scale State and local participation-an invitation which the League supports. The record seems clear, however, that the job will not be done without Federal leadership, and full Federal authority to act. To date, most State and local governments have demonstrated apathy about estuarine problems, and disinterest in meaningful conservation efforts. We turn now to Section 12, which in our view is the heart of H.R. 25. The estuarine zone is a national resource-we need a national tool to protect it. Section 12 provides such a tool. An Interior Department estuarine "development permit" system will do two things: it will assure uniform consideration of proposals affecting diverse areas, therefore being equitable: it will "hold the line" until completion of Federal-State-local estuarine studies, and development of sound conservation programs based thereon. Upon enactment of H.R. 25, the permit system will in most areas stand virtually along as an estuarine conservation tool; as the detailed studies are completed, and as the States develop comprehensive programs, the permit will retain its value as a program component. We recognize that a Federal "development permit" might be regarded as unnecessary harassment of the individual estuarine property owner who wishes to undertake minor improvements of his holdings-a sea wall, a boat dock, or the like. H.R. 4505 seeks to resolve this problem by exempting from the permit procedure owners of single family dwellings. We are in sympathy with this thought. However, if the purpose of the legislation is to protect estuarine values, we could hardly approve a practice because it is piecemeal, when cumulatively it can be just as destructive as a one-shot operation of greater scale. We believe that appropriate regulations could be drawn, under authority granted by Section 12(b) of H.R. 25, to minimize "red tape" of the permit system where the individual citizen is involved on his own property. Mr. Chairman, the Izaak Walton League appreciates the opportunity to appear before this committee. We hope you will approve H.R. 25. Mr. DENNIS. All of our witnesses will present their statements and we would like to have them printed in full in the record. We do not have a prepared statement at this time for Mr. Johnston, but we would like to submit that later. Mr. DINGELL. The record will remain open during which time that may be submitted. Mr. DENNIS. And Mr. Penfold submitted to the staff a letter from our Virginia division which we would like in the record. Mr. DINGELL. That will be inserted into the record at this point. (The document referred to follows:) VIRGINIA DIVISION, IZAAK WALTON LEAGUE OF AMERICA, INC., Hon. JOHN D. DINGELL, SIR: The Virginia Division of the Izaak Walton League of America wishes to state its approval and support of the proposed legislation embodied in H.R. 25. A concern for the proper control and protection of estuarine areas adjacent to the State of Virginia prompted the adoption of a resolution by the Virginia Division, IWLA, for recommendation to the State of Virginia in October 1966, a copy of which is attached. The lack of an indication of positive action by the State of Virginia has emphasized the need for federal legislation, in view of the extent and importance of estuaries adjacent to this state. Our organization regards the protection of estuarine areas from destruction or pollution a matter of prime importance, certainly as important as inland stream protection, and we therefore encourage legislation designed to offer this protection. Sincerely yours JOHN I. PETERSON, (For Glenn C. Welden, President). RESOLUTION CONCERNING COASTAL, INTERSTATE, AND ESTUARIAN WATERS PROTECTION Whereas, the coastal and estuarian waters of the State of Virginia are of great significance for their scenic, recreational, fisheries and wildlife values, and Whereas, such areas are threatened by destruction through development and/ or pollution; Now, therefore, be it resolved by the Virginia Division, Izaak Walton League of America, in convention assembled this 9th day of October, 1966, at Fredericksburg, Virginia, that it strongly recommend to the Commission of Game and Inland Fisheries, the State Water Control Board, the State Commission of Fisheries, the Outdoor Recreation Commission, and the Potomac River Commission that primary attention be given to development of a plan for the protection and restoration of the State's coastal, interstate, and estuarian streams or waters, and Be it further resolved that the Viriginia Division, Izaak Walton League of America, respectfully request the Committee on Rules of the U.S. House of Representatives to grant a rule for consideration of H.R. 13447 by the House of Representatives, which bill would authorize the Secretary of the Interior to cooperate with the States for conservation of the Nation's estuarian areas. Adopted Oct. 9. 1966. Mr. DENNIS. My comments will be very brief. The Izaak Walton League supports H.R. 25. It is another of the fundamental conservation measures which have come before Congress in recent years. We believe that section 12 is the heart of the bill, and I think, going back to Mr. Yasi's statement, that that provision of the bill is the thing that will protect hese estuaries unil such time as comprehensive studies are completed and the States are all geared up to handle their responsibilities in this area. Without further ado, I would like to introduce to the committee, Mr. Redford, who is president of our Florida division. |