Mr. ADAMS. How do you explain, sir, section

Mr. DINGELL. That is another point. I want to find out what your objection is. I must confess that I can find no legitimate objection that you assert to this matter.

Mr. ADAMS. That is where we differ.

The objection that I was trying to explain is that if the Secretary of the Interior were to find that Pamlico Sound in North Carolina were an estuary of national importance and as such on those grounds alone should be incorporated within the national system, there is nothing that I could say that would object to his findings because it is an area of national significance.

Mr. DINGELL. That is not what you state here in your statement of objection. That is an altogether different matter. Now, if you were to come forward and say-first of all, you have to understand if this is a publicly owned area in the State of North Carolina, owned by the State or subdivision, the Secretary has to negotiate an agreement with the State or subdivision to acquire that land or to acquire any dominant interest in that land. Isn't that a fact?

Mr. ADAMS. Not the way I read it.

Mr. DINGELL. If it is publicly owned land, the only way he can acquire any interest in that land is by agreement with the public entity that happens to own that land.

If it is privately owned land, then it requires an act of Congress. You are not going to tell me you are going to be denied the right to be heard in the congressional committee or House of Representatives or U.S. Senate or be denied representation by your very fine delegation here.

Mr. ADAMS. I have not so stated.

Mr. DINGELL. That is why I am asking you if you read the bill. Mr. ADAMS. I have answered you, Mr. Chairman, that I have read the bill a number of times, that I have counseled with all those people I have stated so far that I have counseled with.

What I am presenting is the consensus of several State agencies within the State of North Carolina and the Governor of North Carolina.

Mr. DINGELL. Do you know any other way that the Secretary can acquire an interest in the land other than the two methods I have set forth above?

Mr. ADAMS. Section 2(a) should say, "The Secretary shall

Mr. DINGELL. How is he going to acquire land? There are two ways he can get it. By agreement with the public organization which happens to be a landowner or by an act of Congress.

Mr. ADAMS. To acquire land, you are correct.

Mr. DINGELL. To acquire land or any interest in land or any control over land other than that which he acquires by statute.

Mr. ADAMS. This is where we differ in our reading of the bill. I realize you wrote it. I know what you intended.

Mr. DINGELL. Tell me how he is going to get any interest in land without either a negotiated agreement with the public entity which happens to own the land or by an act of Congress if it is private land.

Mr. ADAMS. I feel under section 2(c) on the basis of his study, the Secretary can recommend that an area, because of its national significance, be administered by the Secretary.

Mr. DINGELL. He can recommand it until he is blue in the face but he is not going to be able to acquire any interest in that land or ownership or predominance over it at all without one of the two steps I have mentioned to you.

Mr. ADAMS. Can you show me then, sir

Mr. DINGELL. I will present you with an analysis of the bill which I hope when you go back to North Carolina you will take the trouble of reading and that you will show it to those with whom you say you have counseled.

Mr. ADAMS. I can find nowhere in the bill where the Secretary is required to enter into an agreement prior to the administration by him of an estuary within the national system.

In the absence of this I have to assume he can do it without entering into such an agreement.

Mr. DINGELL. Let me read to you section 3 (a). It says:

The Secretary may acquire lands and waters or interests therein within any national estuarine area by purchase with appropriated or donated funds, donation, or exchange, except that he shall not acquire with appropriated funds any lands or waters or interests therein owned by a State or by a political subdivision thereof.

That means if he wants to acquire publicly owned lands he must do it by an agreement under section 4(a), "the Secretary may enter into an agreement, containing such terms and conditions as he deems desirable***"' You are not going to tell me that the Governor of the State of North Carolina is going to let the Secretary of the Interior rush down there and dictate an agreement, not if he is the kind of man I think he is.

Mr. ADAMS. Then why can't this be written to so state?
Mr. DINGELL. That is what I stated.

Mr. ADAMS. You got back on acquisition. We are talking about administration and jurisdiction without acquisition by the Federal Government.

Mr. DINGELL. There are only two ways he can acquire land, by agreement with the public owner and when I say land I mean any interest, dominance, control, or anything else, whether it be easement, fee purchase, or whatever it happens to be.

Let us go on to another point here.

Now, under the statute as it reads, the Secretary is required to administer the law in accordance with State game and fish laws. Mr. ADAMS. To the extent applicable.

Mr. DINGELL. Well, we may make some changes in that point.

Mr. ADAMS. That is all I am asking, sir, some changes.

Mr. DINGELL. If that is changed would that eliminate your objection?

Mr. ADAMS. That would help a great deal.

Mr. DINGELL. Would that eliminate your objection?

Mr. ADAMS. To that particular part, yes.

Mr. DINGELL. "The Secretary shall regulate hunting and fishing in accordance with appropriate State laws."

Mr. ADAMS. That is in section 10 you are speaking of now?

Mr. DINGELL. Yes, 10(a).

Mr. ADAMS. Now, you were saying section 3 (b) before?

Mr. DINGELL. Well, we are reading the whole statute. We are not reading a section here and a section there. We are reading a whole. statute that relates one section to another.

Does that eliminate your objection now?

Mr. ADAMS. I think so in that case.

Mr. DINGELL. Now 4(a):

The Secretary may enter into an agreement, containing such terms and conditions as he deems desirable, with any state or political subdivision or agency thereof for the permanent management, development, and administration by him for the purposes of this Act of any lands and waters or interests therein which are located within an estuarine area of national significance and which are owned or thereafter acquired by the State.

Let us talk about this. You say this means that the Secretary may enter into an agreement with the State on his conditions setting forth the terms and conditions. Are you going to tell me he will rush down and tell your Governor what is going to go in the agreement between the United States and the State of North Carolina?

Would the Governor let the Secretary of the Interior dictate to him roughshod and ruthlessly in the agreement that will be negotiated between the two parties?

Mr. ADAMS. If not it takes only the changing of a few words here to make it read as you say it reads.

Mr. DINGELL. Are you aware of the fact that the Federal Government is not permitted, except in certain instances, to dictate to the States?

And that very clearly constitutional powers of the Federal Government would not go here to telling the State of North Carolina or Michigan or anywhere else what was to go into an agreement?

Isn't that an extraordinary interpretation of the statute?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir. I think it is a straightforward interpretation of the wording of this sentence. If it were worded differently, it would do as you say you want it to do which is to make this a mutual agreement, not a dictated agreement from the Secretary.

Mr. DINGELL. Would you be satisfied if we changed it to say "on such terms and conditions as the parties deem desirable"? Mr. ADAMS. I think that would help.

Mr. DINGELL. Would that eliminate your objection?

Mr. ADAMS. "Prior to the inclusion of any State-owned or locally owned area within the national system the Secretary shall enter into an agreement upon mutually acceptable terms."

That does it. There is nothing to argue about here. It just takes a few little word changes.

Mr. DINGELL. Section 6. This section authorizes the Secretary to issue zoning regulations for national estuarine areas. Is he authorized under section 6 to issue zoning regulations?

Mr. ADAMS. Section 6(a):

In order to carry out the purposes of this Act, the Secretary shall issue regulations which may be amended from time to time specifying standards for zoning bylaws which must meet his approval. Such standards shall have the object of (1) prohibiting new commercial or industrial uses, other than commercial or industrial uses which the Secretary considers are consistent with the purposes of this Act, of all lands, waters, or interests therein within any national estuarine area, and (2) promoting the protection and development of the area by means of acreage, frontage, and setback requirements.

Mr. DINGELL. He issues regulations specifying standards for zoning bylaws to meet his approval. He does not issue zoning regulations under this.

Mr. ADAMS. All right. Thank you. I have misread it. You are correct on that.

Mr. DINGELL. And these regulations deal with whether or not there will be Federal condemnation of lands within the privately owned, within the privately owned portions of the estuarine areas.

Mr. ADAMS. Section 6(b) then really means after issuance of such regulations at the State or local level then the Secretary shall approve any bylaws, not issuance of zoning regulations at the Federal level. Mr. DINGELL. Incidentally, this is standard now for a lot of national seashore areas. Once the zoning bylaw meets the regulations and meets the standards set up then the Secretary can't go in and condemn land under section 6(a) and 6(b). That is the purpose of the regulation.

Mr. ADAMS. This is my misinterpretation then.

Mr. DINGELL. That is to keep him out of there and keep this land in private ownership so long as

Mr. ADAMS. Good enough.

Mr. DINGELL. Section 9:

The Secretary is authorized to issue regulations governing the public use of estuarine areas administered by him.

No mention is made of State concurrence nor conflict with existing State laws nor is "public use" restricted from its all-encompassing definition. If we made this to be subject to hunting and fishing under applicable State statutes you would not have any more objection than having him issue regulations for the use let us say of Cape Hatteras or some of the other very fine public areas that are owned and managed by the Federal Government in North Carolina, would you?

Mr. ADAMS. Why is section 9 necessary, sir when he is given specific regulatory authority throughout this bill?

Mr. DINGELL. He is only authorized to issue these regulations in estuarine areas administered by the Secretary.

Mr. ADAMS. These are all estuarine areas within the national system. Mr. DINGELL. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. That is correct; yes.

Mr. DINGELL. Do you have objection to that?

Mr. ADAMS. I question whether it is necessary when the Secretary is given authority for regulations in various areas throughout the bill whereas public use is a very broad term.

Mr. DINGELL. He has to protect the area.

very broad amount of use.

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Public use covers a very

Mr. DINGELL. It is obvious you would not want a year hence to find the Secretary to be deficient in his ability to handle particular problems that happen to arise in connection with the protection and preservation of these areas and have this hot potato thrust back in our lap to bounce around again.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you suggest it be amended by stating "provided such regulation is not in conflict with existing State laws that are concerned"?

Mr. DINGELL. I don't think any regulation would be in conflict with State laws. He is not going to permit the practice of murder, bigamy. illegal

Mr. ADAMS. You would not object?

Mr. DINGELL. I can't see any strong reason for doing it. Certainly the best thing that will come out of these kinds of programs is that there will be concurrent jurisdiction by the Federal Government and the State government in these areas and that an act would not be violative of State law; that is, unless the State cedes absolute jurisdiction to the Federal Government. If not, the State will be able to exercise police power in the area.

The only area where the Federal Government has jurisdiction for enforcement of State laws is in territories, District of Columbia and national parks. The State laws would not be affected by any regulations.

The State could go ahead and assert them.

Mr. ADAMS. You would not object to this being amended?

Mr. DINGELL. I didn't say that. I said I could see no strong reason for that at this time. I am trying to see what your concern is.

Mr. ADAMS. We feel that the State government would feel much more comfortable if it were so amended. As you stated the Secretary would surely not do anything which would be in conflict with State laws, then there should be no disagreement here.

Mr. DINGELL. In our discussion of this you are creating not only an analysis of your position but the legislative history. I am speaking here as the author of the bill. I do not propose to make any further discussion as to whether or not I am going to offer amendments on a particular point.

Now, section 10 (a):

The Secretary shall regulate hunting and fishing in accordance with the appropriate State laws, to the extent applicable...

I think the committee will make some adjustments on that. Perhaps it will meet your objections and the objections I have heard from other State agencies.

Section 10 (c):

Provides for federal enforcement of regulations enacted by the Secretary. Certainly you don't want him to issue regulations without authority to carry them out?

Mr. ADAMS. Our concern is that as the State has already regulations in all of these areas, a second set of regulations enforced by a second set of law-enforcement officers complicates the picture.

Mr. DINGELL. Yes. Unless the State cedes complete jurisdiction to the Federal Government, State agencies, State authorities, State game and fish, State health inspectors, State officers of all kinds will be able to enter this area just the same as they enter other Federal areas, national forests, national parks, and see that their regulations and laws are carried out.

Mr. ADAMS. All right, sir.

Mr. DINGELL. Now 12(a).

No person may conduct any dredging, filling, or excavation work within any estuary of the United States. . . unless a permit for such work is issued by the Secretary