PARLIAMENT. [41.662.706.] On the 7th of December 1779, the Duke of Richmond rofe in the House of Lords, and said, that the present state of public concerns had filled him with the greatest anxiety, and his most serious thoughts had been employed in the formation of fome expedient that might prevent the total completion, or at least produce fome mitigation, of the national calamities. There were but two practicable methods of effecting this great end, namely, ftrict and rigid economy through all the departments of the state, and a disposition in his Majesty to select the wisest and ablest men the kingdom could produce for the future management of the helm. The feries of misfortunes which had occurred during the progress of the present war, was fuch as exceeded all conception, and even outstretched the power of his recollection so far as to deprive him of the ability of forming any kind of just and regular inventory of them. When two nations were at war, the mode of judgement which they would certainly adopt, would undoubtedly be this. What is the power of the enemy with whom I have to contend? What is the present strength of my adversary? and, What the resources ? Comparing then the capacity of the foe, with their own ability, they would be each able to decide with precifion concerning the eligibility of a farther profecution of hoftilities. If this maxim of political difcretion were applied by us to our present circumstances, how should we feel or think concerning a continuance of the war? France had been able to carry on the war hitherto without the impofition of one extraordinary duty; even the war-tax had not yet been applied. No larger a sum than 1,700,0001. had been raised last year for the fupport of the war; and he was well apprised, that not more than 2,000,000 1. would be wanting, or was intended to be required, for the neceffities of this. But how did they procure those sums? Not as in England, where the interest was to be defrayed by new taxes; but without funding it at all, or without reducing their fubjects to the distress of difcharging interest. The interest was to be paid from favings from the King's revenues, and no part of the inconvenience generally attending war either had, or was likely to arife to the people of that country from the most vigorous exertions against this. The cafe ftood materially different with England. The funded debt of the kingdom, including the wants of the enfuing year, would amount to the enormous sum of 198,000,0001. Supposing the war was to cease with the present year, there would notwithstanding be a kind of after-expence, which always follows the winding up of a war, to the amount of not less than 13,000,0001. So that on the idea of an immediate termination、 of hoftilities, there will be a funded national debt to the amount of 211,000,000l. The interest of this was to be paid:and how paid? By fresh exactions on the people, -by new taxes, and new oppreffions, till their last penny would be exhausted in fostering the wild schemes of a perfevering ill-judging administration. If fuch consequences were to be inevitable, even on the fuppofition of an immediate peace, what was to be dreaded from a farther profecution of the war? The increase on the three articles of army, navy, and ordnance, beyond the average estimate of their peace-establishment, was at least 7,000,000l. In the year 1775, the expences of these three departments were 3,700,0001.; in the year 1776, 6,000,000 1.3; and in 1777 and 1778, upwards of 10,000,0001.-Befides this, what were the number of troops that were to be fustained? There was at present in England, for the defence only of the island, 100,000 men voted by parliament. The establishment in Ireland was about 15,000. The number, as deduced from parliamentary accounts, at present said to exist in America and the Western islands, 75,000; in all, upwards of 190,000 men in the pay of this country. - As to the navy alfo, it was known that there were 85,000 men juft voted there, fo that, adding thereto the lift of 190,000, and including also the armies kept up by the East-India company, and the volunteer associations of Ireland, to the amount of 40,000 men, which might in fome fort be faid to live upon this country, the total refult would arife to between 2 and 300,000 men. To these confiderations it was to be added, that the nations with whom we had to contend were more than triple our fuperiors in the number of inhabitants. and Spain alone exceeded us so much, excluding the acceffion of the inferior powers on the borders of the Mediterranean, as Naples, &c. and Portugal, whose interpolition against us was every France ranean, To day to out! 1 tr be expected. There were but two methods, as he had previously obferved, if this war was to be persevered in; and those were, economy, and a selection of the wifest heads into all the departments of administration. The ftate he had given of our finances fufficiently demonftrated the neceffity of the former, and the experience of past times had often evinced the excellent effects rifing, even in the most defperate emergencies, from the latter. a His Grace disclaimed any personal intention in the motion he should propose; one main purport of which was, he said, to procure a reduction of the civil list, which was now by a late grant of parlia ment [39. 297, 8.] increased to the enormous fum of 900,0001. He declared he did not wish to abridge his Majesty of any part of his state and splendour, or any of his personal enjoyments; but, in matters of great national importance, he thought it was always proper that the example should be set by the crown. After a great variety of arguments in fupport of the neceffity of commencing to reform, and to economise; and that not partially, but on a broad, general, and universal plan, his Grace concluded his speech with moving, "That an humble address be presented to his Majesty, to beseech his Majesty to reflect on the manifold distresses and difficulties in which this kingdom is in volved, too deeply felt to stand in need of enumeration. To represent, that amidst the many and various matters that require reformation, and muft undergo correction be. fore this country can rise superior to its powerful enemies, the waste of public treasure requires instant remedy; that profufion is not vigour; and that it is become indispensably necessary to adopt that true economy, which, by reforming all useless expences, creates confi. dence in government, gives energy to its exertions, and provides the means for their continuance. Humbly to fubmit to his Majesty, that a confiderable reduction of his Majesty's civil lift would be an example well-becoming his Majesty's paternal affection for his people, and his own dignity; would not fail of diffusing its influence through every department of the state; and would add true luftre to his crown from the grateful feelings of a distressed people. To affure his Majesty, that this House will readily concur in promoting so defireable a purport; and any one of its members will chearfully submit to fuch reduction of emolument, in any office he may hold, as his Majesty in his royal wisdom may think proper to make." He was Lord Stormont perfectly agreed with the Noble Duke in all his premises, but totally dissented from the justice or expediency of his concluion. well aware, that economy, the most rigid economy, was strictly neceffary through all the branches of government: but, strongly as he was disposed towards the practice of economy, he never could think such a commencement in the obfervation of it as the Noble Duke had recommended, either honourable or politic. For what inference would not other nations, and the enemy particularly, deduce from our having recourse even to his Majesty's household expences? Would they not think we were at the last edge of distress? and might they not be stimulated into unthought of exertions from that confideration?-for that would be the time, they would naturally fuppose, to crush us totally; and that he very well knew was the ambitious aim of the present treacherous and formidable confederacy. What alfo would be the effect of this proceeding upon the people? Despair, the only thing wanting to complete the lift of our misfortunes, would be the neceffary result of the Noble. Duke's expedient; and therefore that expedient was, in his opinion, a meafure of all others the most carefully to be avoided.-Concerning what the Noble Duke had faid respecting the resources of this country, compared with those of our enemies, he had only to observe, that he did not think that that comparifon proved any thing: the arguments deduced from it had no application, admitting all the calculations in which these arguments were involved to be in all respects fair and accurate; for the question at present was, Shall we persevere in a war entered into on the most honourable grounds, or shall we fubmit to a disgraceful peace? The latter meafure was reprobated by every body : what then was the other alternative? Why, to prosecute the war. That being admitted, any representation of the inferiority of our finance was unnecef fary, C2 Iary, and improper, as carrying with it an intimation of which our enemies might avail themselves, and tending to introduce despair into the minds of the people of England. He would therefore vote against the motion in question. Lord Bathurst acquiefced in the neceffity for strict economy, but that it fhould commence with more important objects, and not begin where the conse. quence of it, as to the saving, must be trifling, and the effect of it, as to the people, extremely dangerous. All that could be faved in the article of revenue would be but like a drop to an ocean; while the same spirit of care and investi gation exercised differently, might be attended with the most salutary effects to the kingdom. Lord Effingham contended, that the motion was highly necessary; and mentioned as a grievance which called for reformation, the immense income of the paymaster of the forces, who was raising a princely fortune, which increased in proportion as the public distresses increafed. His Lordship spoke of a tax, the cost of collecting which was 47 per cent.; and declared, that the cost of collecting the excife (which was boasted of as the cheapest and best-managed collection of all others) one year, cost as much as would have paid and cloathed all the army voted that year, which happened to be 17,000 only. The Marquis of Rockingham contended for the motion on constitutional grounds. Our political fystem, he said, required reform, and in this instance par ticularly; that the influence of the crown was too extenfive; on that account, therefore, he would vote for the motion, as it had the excellent tendency of checking that dangerous influence, which he presaged, if not corrected, would be the cause of this country's ruin. He mentioned, that Q. Anne had once given 100,0001. to affift her subjects in carrying on a war different in its effects from this, and the inftance also of K. George II. who gaye 700,0001. more from his private treasure and revenue for the relief of his subjects in the prosecution of a troublesome war. Lord Dartmouth thought the motion might be termed a perfonal reflection on his Majesty's conduct. Lords Manchester, Abingdon, and Grafton, spoke for the motion. Lord Townshend thought the motion ought to be voted for the general good; faid, it was only agreeing to do that now, which they must of neceffity do next year, at farthest. He said, he did not mean to join Oppofition, or affift men of that description; but he did not regard the present as a party-motion, and therefore should vote for it. The Lord Chancellor faid, he was perfectly ready to acknowledge, that the motion carried in it no fort of perfonal accusation of his Majesty, and that the Noble Duke had not the most distant intention of casting a reflection on the King for his conduct in the disbursement and application of that part of his revenue which was properly denominated the civil lift. His Lordship called the attention of the House to the motion in all its parts - [Lord Shelburne anfwered to the distinct points stated by the Lord Chancellor. We fubjoin to each point the answer made to it.] Chancellor. The first paragraph stated was, that "his Majesty was beseeched to reflect on the distresses and difficulties in which this kingdom is involved, too deeply felt to stand in need of enumeration." His Lordship asked, Who knew of these distresses ? What investigation of their Lordships, as a House of Parliament, were they the result of? Shelburne. If the Noble Lord was ignorant of that fact, he was the only man in the kingdom who was yet to learn it. Our calamities had rendered this country, what a Noble Earl had early in the debate very properly thrown out, the pity of all the world. So earnest, however, was he to get the Noble and Learned Lord's vote, that he would undertake the whole paragraph should be left out, if that would remove his fcruples. Ch. The next paragraph stated, that "the wafte of public treasure required instant remedy." This was an affertion of fome importance, and not furely to be hazarded on mere speculation. If the fact were so, the department of go. vernment ought furely to be pointed out in which the waste of the public treafure lay; otherwise the charge was unjust, because it applied to all public offices alike; and that being the cafe, he fubmitted it to the House, how far it was just, and becoming their dignity, to vote an address, which contained a general and undefined charge against the King's fervants, which no one Lord had been able able to bring home to the door of any one of those persons so accufed. Sh. There again the Noble and Learned Lord was the only ignorant man in the kingdom. It was a fact which had been admitted by all fides of the House. No body, excepting only the Noble and Learned Lord, had attempted even to doubt it. Still, however, so anxious was he to fatisfy him, that he would undertake that whole paragraph should likewife be croffed out. Ch. The remainder of the motion contained two propofitions; one "advifing his Majesty to make a confiderable reduction of his civil lift;" the other "afsuring his Majesty, that every member of that House would chearfully fubmit to fuch reduction of emolument in any office he may hold, as his Majesty, in his royal wisdom, might think proper to make." The first of these propofitions, even were it practicable to make any reduction in the civil lift, strewed fuch difficulties in the way of its execution, that it was impoffible for any minifter to advise his Majesty upon the fubject. It ftated a confiderable reduction. Was a moiety of the civil lift the confiderable part alluded to? Were two thirds of it? Was one third of it? for to each would the word be equally applicable. Again, if the motion were carried, it could not enforce the advice. It was no act of parliament. His Majesty's civil lift was established at its present amount by act of parliament. Befides, what part of the civil lift was the reduction defired by the motion to be made in? Their Lordships all knew, that many different establishments were provided for out of the revenue of the civil lift, with the payment of which his Majefty had no more personal connection or interference than their Lordships. With regard to the last propofition, how was that to be carried into execution? He supposed, by the affurance it con. tained, "that the House would readily concur in promoting so defireable a purpofe," it was meant, that his Majesty should understand, they were willing to follow up the address by proceeding to pafs an act, authorising the purposes now i avowed. But how would their Lord ships come at the true fource of each species of official emolument? They must go through an inquiry of a very deep and intricate fort, into the origin of all the exchequer places and profits, and would have to search into a variety of offices and of perquisites, that had no immediate reference to the civil lift or the court. In short, he declared he faw no probability of their Lordships being able to go through so immenfe and difficult a business, with fufficient effect to remedy the evil. Sh. The motion would be confined to the request to his Majesty to become an example of economy, by a reduction of his civil lift, and the assurance that they, as Lords of Parliament, would follow the example, and thus begin what the Noble Marquis had so properly termed a conftitutional reformation, without which this country could not be faved. With regard to the objection, That there was no specific request as to the quantum of the civil lift to be reduced, he did not defire to curtail his Majesty of any one of his enjoyments. There were, however, several heads of expenditure of the civil lift, which loudly called for a reform. The money paid for foreign embassies was enormously Twelled indeed. In the reign of K. William (an æra so glorious, that every man who loved his country regarded it with admiration) the expence of foreign embaffies was about 43,0001. and now they were swelled to the extravagant sum of upwards of 90,000l. Ambaffadors then did their duty; secretaries of state did their duty; they understood each other. Secret-fervice money was another branch of expenditure which called for immediate reformation, because, at present, the sums wasted under this head were enormous, and it was obvious ministers were totally without intelligence, and that their admirals and generals, one and all, complained of the frivoloufness, the uncertainty, and the wretched. ness of the information they generally received from them. Lord Stormont defired the Earl to explain what he meant by the large fums of the public money that he had received. Lord Shelburne declared, if the Noble Lord thought he had alluded to the secret-fervice money that had passed thro' his hands, upon his honour he did not; for he knew not what the fum was, although he had heard it was very confiderable. He said further, that he had lately received a letter, defiring him to liften to fome information from a perfon who offered to disclose to him all the fecrets of the Noble Lord's embassy, and promifing promifing to make him acquainted with the many intrigues which had been carried on in France through the means and contrivance of a perfon of elevated rank and station here, whom he would not name, but whom the Noble Vifcount could not but well know. He did affure the Noble Viscount that he should decline the offer, and would have nothing to do with it; and that what he meant by the large fums of money he had mentioned was the money he had received at Vienna, during the long time he was ambassador there, when that court had only an envoy in London. Lord Stormont owned that he was glad to find the Noble Earl alluded merely to his falary as an ambaffador, in which capacity he had never been paid more nor less than was paid to others. Lord Townshend wished the motion postponed, but faid he would vote for it if it were put. The question being put, the numbers were, Contents 33, proxies 3, in all 36; Not contents 57, proxies 20, in all 77. Mr Jenkinson, the 'fecretary at war, moved the army-eftimates in the House of Commons, Dec. 8. and entered into a detail of the forces and expence. He stated the army in G. Britain, &c. jected by the Lords, would have occafioned double the augmentation now proposed: That some gentlemen had ex.. preffed on former occafions objections to the extent of the land-establishment, upon the footing of the fuperior importance of the naval establishment: but he apprehended that this was erroneous; the different branches of the land-establishments might, and did interfere with each other; but very little or nothing with the navy: however, that there was not the leaft reason to object to the one fervice rather than the other, as there was not the smallest apprehenfion of the Noble Lord in the blue ribbon being able to provide by public credit for both. Sir Charles Bunbury adverted to the danger to the constitution which must result from such prodigious establishments: they gave the crown an influence which he thought ought to alarm every friend to that system of liberty which had exalted this kingdom. Mr T. Townshend stated his objections to the estimates, and faid several of them appeared to be very extravagant, particularly that of the Staff and General officers of England and Ireland, which amounted to no less a sum than near 20,0001. more than it did in the year 1762, the most expensive year of the last glorious war. He arraigned the army76,000 promotions, and faid, that the public 6,500 expence was confiderably increased by 6,500 the giving away so many commiffions, Men 35,000 and making fo many lieutenant-generals, 58,000 in confequence of which the major-ge10,000 nerals, whose pay was in the proportion In all 192,000 And the charge 4,100,000 1. Of these the militia are 37,500, and the charge 700,000 1. He stated most of these establishments and charges, as fuperior to those of last year, explaining the reasons why they were fo. He observed, That the recruit ing-fervice had raised, by volunteers 20,500, and by the press-act 1400, in all 21,900: That the new levies must of neceffity have impeded the recruiting-fer vice; but that was an effect which must ever happen: That he apprehended the House would not think the number of men increased since last year, and which amounted to about 15,000, an augmentation too great, when it was confidered, that in the last session the House almost unanimously passed a bill for doubling the militia, which, had it not been re of 21. 108. to 5l. were not employed. He complained also of there being no commander in chief appointed, and faid, that it was owing to this circumftance that all the blame fell upon Lord Amherft, when he perhaps did not deferve any of it. He censured the giving a command to a person who had been a lieutenant on halfpay [41.575.]; and faid, that LtCol. Musgrave, who had bled in his country's service, and was now with his regiment in Jamaica, had applied in vain for one. He mentioned other instances of partiality and ill treatment of officers, alluding particularly to Gen. Burgoyne's cafe. He lamented Sir Henry Clinton's fituation, and faid, every person who knew that gallant officer pitied him fincerely. To what a miferable state had minifters reduced him, almost a prisoner with 25,000 troops in New York! He enumerated the |