be sent to school because I was always rather weak on Communist theory.

At any rate I believe the question period was about a half hour and at the end of that time I was beginning to wonder exactly what was going on because of the type of questions that were being thrown at me, and it was about that time that Sig Eisenscher pulled out a typewritten statement, I imagine about 2 pages long and read it to me. Mr. SCHERER. Did you answer those questions that they asked you during this half hour?

Mr. SNYDER. I did.

Mr. SCHERER. Did you use the fifth amendment?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. TAVENNER. Was this statement that was presented at that time a statement which had been prepared ahead of the questioning? Mr. SNYDER. Yes.

Mr. TAVENNER. Ahead of this meeting?
Mr. SNYDER. Yes, it was.

Eisenscher then read me the charge of being an FBI agent, of my being suspected of being an FBI agent, that they could not tolerate such people in the Communist Party; theerfore, I was as of then no longer a Communist.

Mr. TAVENNER. Were you representing the FBI in any capacity? Mr. SNYDER. No, none whatsoever.

Mr. TAVENNER. In other words, this statement was false in every respect?

Mr. SNYDER. It was definitely false.

Mr. SCHERER. Did you tell them it was false?

Mr. SNYDER. I did. I would like to explain my attitude at the time. Mr. Tavenner has led up to it. My whole life for 2 years was the Communist Party. I had no outside friends or no outside contacts. My home was far away. I had no relatives here. Therefore, I was very much wrapped up in the Communist Party, and when I was expelled from the Communist Party I thought that this was a real blow. Actually it was a real blow.

I didn't realize until I would say 3 months later what a very good service they had done for me.

Mr. DOYLE. In other words, you felt it was an unfair, unjust and very crippling blow to you at the moment?

Mr. SNYDER. At the moment I thought it was true.

Mr. DOYLE. But later you decided it was a favor?

Mr. SNYDER. I was married 3 months later and have a very fine wife and family. I am sure I wouldn't have these if I had been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. TAVENNER. You say that this charge was presented against you involving possible connections with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Do you have any reason to believe that there was some other motive that influenced the Communist Party in taking this action against you, and they just used that as a pretext?

Mr. SNYDER. Of course, it is only a theory of mine.

Mr. TAVENNER. I think you are entitled to present it in light of what occurred.

Mr. SNYDER. I believe in this case that I had incurred the enmity of one Mark Berman. I think that he put the so-called skids under me as far as getting me out of the Communist Party.

I base that theory on the fact that Mark Berman used to borrow my car. At one time he borrowed my car and didn't return it for 3 days, and I had assumed it was a couple of hours or at least that evening I would have my car back. However, 3 days later I went after my car. Mr. DOYLE. Went where? Did he not return it?

Mr. SNYDER. He didn't return my car, no.

Mr. DOYLE. Did you pay for the gasoline while he had it?

Mr. SNYDER. I imagine that he burned up the gas in the tank that was there. I don't recall if there was more gas in the car when he brought it back or not. At least I went after my car. I was looking for it, and I was walking down on West Michigan Avenue by the Milwaukee Depot and I spotted my car and I also spotted Mark Berman at the same time. I approached him and said that I would sure as the devil like to have my car back. He put me off quite abruptly and told me that I should get away because someone was trailing him and that he had to get away fast. He got away fast.

That evening, however, he did return my car and when he returned it he threw the keys; they went on the floor. He said, "Take your so-and-so car and your keys," and stalked out the door.

I thought that at the time it was a very unreasonable attitude for anyone to have. [Laughter.]

Mr. SCHERER. You just were not a true Communist at heart.

Mr. SNYDER. However, I do think that that is one of the reasons. Mark Berman was quite an important member in the Communist Party and I think that that more than likely influenced the whole affair. Mark just didn't like me after that. That is about all I can say about that.

Mr. TAVENNER. After you were expelled from the Communist Party did you make any effort to get back in?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. TAVENNER. Since the time of your expulsion have you engaged in any Communist Party activity?

Mr. SNYDER. None whatsoever.

Mr. TAVENNER. Have you anything that you desire to say to the committee in addition to what you have already said about your good fortune in having been mistreated? You are perfectly at liberty to say it.

Mr. SNYDER. I am not much of a talker. As a matter of fact I get quite embarrassed when I do speak. I would say this: That I am very happy to have the experience that I have gotten and still not be a member of the Communist Party. It is something that if everybody in the United States could know actually what I know about the party and not be a Communist, which is quite a contradiction, of course, I don't think we would have any trouble today with communism in the United States.

Mr. TAVENNER. Do I understand from that that you are saying in substance that you feel that with the knowledge you now have of the Communist Party you can be more loyal to your country? Mr. SNYDER. I can be much more loyal.

Mr. TAVENNER. Because of the mistakes that you know have occurred?

Mr. SNYDER. That is right. I wish to say that I have absolutely no affection for the Communist Party or their way of life. I am very happy that what happened did happen when it did. I like to think

that if it hadn't happened, that if I would not have been expelled that I would have gotten out by myself at a later date. That is what I like to think, at least.

Mr. TAVENNER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DOYLE. Congressman Willis?

Mr. WILLIS. I have no further questions.

Mr. DOYLE. Congressman Scherer.

Mr. SCHERER. I have no questions.

Mr. DOYLE. They had an educational class in the history of the United States Constitution, did they not, while you were a member; a class which you attended?

Mr. SNYDER. I don't recall, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Neither do I, but my remark was made facetiously for effect because I have never heard of a Communist class studying the United States Constitution. I thought that by asking a question that way it would emphasize for your attention and for the record that there is no such thing.

You said for 2 years your whole life was wrapped up in the Communist Party?

Mr. SNYDER. That is correct.

Mr. DOYLE. What do you mean by that?

Mr. SNYDER. That perhaps takes a little explaining. I moved to Milwaukee from Chicago about a year previous to becoming a member of the Communist Party. Upon leaving Chicago coming to a strange place, I had no friends at the time, and my first contacts were with the Young Progressives and with the Progressive Party. I made no attempt to make friends outside of those two groups, and therefore, when I was expelled from the Communist Party it was an expulsion and it was also a complete ignoring of me.

I recall the first night I went back. I believe Mike Ondrejka was in his room. The apartment was mine. Therefore I didn't have to

move.

Mr. DOYLE. Did you pay the rent for all the others; that is, sharing? Mr. SNYDER. I paid the rent of that apartment for the other two. Mike paid his own way.

Mr. DOYLE. For which two did you pay the rent?

Mr. SNYDER. I paid the rent for Sid Berger and Herb Major. That is, the apartment was mine. I just kept the rent up.

Mr. DOYLE. Were they not working?

Mr. SNYDER. Yes and no.

Mr. DOYLE. How long was it yes and no? How long did you pay the rent?

Mr. SNYDER. Sid Berger couldn't seem to hold a job ever, and what jobs he did hold he didn't seem to make enough money to be able to go his share. Herb Major was going to school and Herb did everything he could, I know, to hold up his share, but he couldn't do it and go to school at the same time. I had ability to make enough money so I just furnished the money for our living. That is all. Mr. DOYLE. You were sort of a Communist angel, then?

Mr. SNYDER. A fool.

Mr. DOYLE. May I ask you just one more question. When this group of Communist leaders in Milwaukee and Wisconsin picked you

up in the automobile and took you to Allied Linoleum Shop, the owner of which testified here earlier today, as I recall it—I think he was the man with some medals in a picture frame, was he not? Mr. SNYDER. Yes.

Mr. DOYLE. Did they not tell you that you were going on trial and for you to get a lawyer, or that you were going to have a hearing and ask you if you wanted a public hearing before the cell of which you were a member?

Mr. SNYDER. No, I was told that I could appeal this decision to the highest committee or the central committee. I don't recall exactly what that group was now. I believe it was the central committee.

Mr. DOYLE. Did they not hand you a bill of charges before they began questioning you?

Mr. SNYDER. NO.

Mr. DOYLE. At no time?

Mr. SNYDER. At no time.

Mr. DOYLE. I want to observe here to my colleagues and counsel that I think that is the history of the Communist Party all over the Nation. We have never heard of a case of a member of the Communist Party being expelled who was ever given a bill of charges or complaints or given a hearing with counsel. You were never told you could plead the fifth amendment?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. DOYLE. Is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. No.

Mr. DOYLE. What kind of questions did they ask you before they sprung this prepared statement of 2 sheets on you? Just briefly give us an idea.

Mr. SNYDER. I don't think I can recall anything. Just that I was an FBI agent. I know that there were an awful lot of leading questions that I answered, but not knowing what was going to happen I wasn't too interested in what they were saying.

Mr. DOYLE. You denied then, and now deny under oath that you were ever an FBI agent; is that correct?

Mr. SNYDER. I do.

Mr. DOYLE. Let me thank you on behalf of the United States Congress for having guts enough to be willing to come before this congressional committee and give the United States Congress the benefit of your terrible experience. I know without saying that you have been, since you were expelled, contributing strength to your Nation instead of weakness. We thank you for doing that.

Mr. WILLIS. May I ask a question?

Mr. DOYLE. Yes, indeed, Mr. Willis.

Mr. WILLIS. Regarding your reference to Mark Berman and your theory surrounding the discharge, let me suggest to you that you may not be far wrong, because in this booklet which I have before me prepared by our investigators and given to us, in all seriousness here is the way that man in characterized: "Subject is reported to be the chief of police for the Communist Party in Milwaukee, Wis." Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Mr. Willis.

Have you anything else from this witness, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. TAVENNER. No, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. I think I ought to ask this so that the record will be clear. I have never talked with this witness in my life. I do not know what his answer will be.

Have you received any emolument or compensation or pay, or the promise of anything for testifying as you have before this committee? Mr. SNYDER. None whatsoever.

Mr. DOYLE. You have not been promised any money in the future or any consideration, financial or property of any sort?

Mr. SNYDER. None whatsoever.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you.

The witness is excused, with our thanks. [Applause.] (Witness excused.)

Mr. DOYLE. The committee will stand in recess until 1:15 p. m. (Whereupon, at 12: 20 the hearing was recessed to reconvene at 1: 15 the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. DOYLE. The committee will reconvene at 1:35.

Let the record please show that the committee members of the subcommittee present are Representative Willis from Louisiana, on my right; and I am Representative Doyle from California. Mr. Scherer, the third member of the subcommittee, is temporarily absent. Under the rules of the House the two of us being present is a legal quorum of the three. Therefore, we will proceed.

Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Otis Daigle, will you come forward?

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Daigle, will you please rise and be sworn?

Mr. TAVENNER. May I ask him a question before you swear him? Mr. DAIGLE. Your Honor, may I object to these pictures being taken? Mr. DOYLE. Yes; we will ask the press, as long as the witness has objected, to please desist from taking them.

STATEMENT OF OTIS DAIGLE

Mr. TAVENNER. I want to ask you a question or two before you are sworn if you will sit down a moment, please. You were subpenaed this morning to appear here, Mr. Daigle. A few minutes ago after I returned from lunch I had the investigator find you in the corridor and bring you back here in order to inform you what this was about. I told you that there has been testimony involving you here, and I told you you were entitled to counsel, did I not?

Mr. DAIGLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. TAVENNER. I suggested that you if you could, on this short notice, obtain service of counsel, and you said you would leave and see if you could. So, before going any further I want to find out whether you have obtained counsel?

Mr. DAIGLE. No; I have not. I haven't been able to get anybody yet. Mr. TAVENNER. Well, you are entitled to have counsel, and in addition to that the rule of the committee is that you cannot be compelled to testify within 24 hours from the time of the service of the subpena

on you.

If you prefer more time to get counsel it is perfectly all right. Mr. DAIGLE. I would prefer to have counsel.