Mr. SCHERER. When subpenas are issued like that and it can be demonstrated to the committee that a witness will be prejudiced, continuances are granted.

Now if you want a continuance until Thursday-but you indicate that you are prepared to go forward. He has counsel, and you understand the questions that are going to be asked your witness, you understand the purpose for which he is here. I don't think you are prejudiced, and I think Mr. Doyle's ruling is proper.

Mr. GREENBURG. Rather than inconvenience my client further, we would choose to go ahead now.

Mr. TAVENNER. For the benefit of the record, I should state that the marshal was instructed to notify this witness why he was wanted at the time he was served. I assume that notice was given to him although I haven't checked on it. When counsel appeared here yesterday, we told him why we wanted to call this witness.

Mr. GREENBURG. That was the first we had heard of it, Mr. Counsel. The marshal evidently did not inform him as to just what he was wanted for.

Mr. DOYLE. We are glad that the counsel and witness are not too much inconvenienced and that you are ready to proceed.

Mr. DOYLE. Will you please stand now, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SHAPIRO. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SHAPIRO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, PAUL H. GREENBURG

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. SHAPIRO. Louis Shapiro.

Mr. TAVENNER. How do you spell your name?

Mr. SHAPIRO. L-o-u-i-s S-h-a-p-i-r-o.

Mr. TAVENNER. It is noted you are accompanied by counsel. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?

Mr. GREENBURG. Paul H. Greenburg, 60 Park Place, Newark, N. J. Mr. TAVENNER. When and where were you born?

Mr. SHAPIRO. Russia.

Mr. TAVENNER. When did you come to this country?

Mr. SHAPIRO. July 24, 1912.

Mr. TAVENNER. You did not state your age or time of your birth.

Mr. SHAPIRO. I was born December 28, 1899.

Mr. TAVENNER. Are you a naturalized American citizen?

Mr. SHAPIRO. Yes, sir.

Mr. TAVENNER. In what business are you engaged?

Mr. SHAPIRO. Printing.

Mr. TAVENNER. In the city of Newark?

Mr. SHAPIRO. Yes. Job printing.

Mr. TAVENNER. Are you acquainted with Mr. Lewis Moroze? (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. Yes, I have done some printing work for him.

Mr. TAVENNER. Do you recall an officer of the police department coming to see you on January 31, 1951, regarding the printing of the document on the table in front of you, Nusser exhibit No. 5? (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. I do recall, but the only thing I assume I was called into the police department

Mr. TAVENNER. You were called into the police department instead of the police department going to you?

Mr. SHAPIRO. Right.

Mr. TAVENNER. I have before me a sworn statement purportedly signed by you bearing date of January 31, 1951. Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not that is a sworn statement over your signature, which you gave the police department in regard to the printing of that document?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. Yes. It is my signature.

Mr. TAVENNER. I desire to introduce the document into evidence and ask that it be marked, "Shapiro Exhibit No. 1."

Mr. DOYLE. So received and so marked.

Mr. TAVENNER. I desire to read the document into the record and ask the witness to listen to its reading:

Voluntary statement of Louis Shapiro, residence 429 Leslie Street, Newark, N. J., occupation typesetter, age 51, statement made to detectives Harry Barron and Jim Stapleton, 10: 30 a. m. at Police Headquarters in the subversive squads room on the first floor.

"I, Louis Shapiro, have a printing establishment at 84 13th Avenue. I have been located at this address about 14 months. Our main business is commercial and job printing. I have a partner in the business. His name is Jacob Ames and he lives at 288 Kerrigan Boulevard in Newark. On November 30, 1950 a man came to my store and said that he represented the Communist Party of New Jersey, and he said to me ‘I want you to print for me 12,000 leaflets, the cheapest kind I can get.'

"I don't remember his name exactly, but I do remember him saying that he was from 38 Park Place, Newark. One of these leaflets were shown to me by Detective Barron and I will identify it when called to do so.

"This man paid me in cash when the job was completed, about 10 days later. The amount of the bill was $51. I might be able to identify this man who gave me this order if I saw him again.

"On January 13, 1951, a man came into my store and told me that his name was Moroze and he was the executive secretary of the Civil Rights Congress at 188 Belmont Avenue, Newark, N. J. He asked me to print for him 10,000 leaflets on newsprint paper and he would pay when the job was completed. This leaflet was also shown to me by Detective Barron and I will identify it when called to do so.

"About a week after receiving this order Moroze came into the store and paid me for it, the amount paid was $77.25 in cash. I had no idea when I printed these leaflets that they were in any way illegal because if I had I would not have printed them.

"I read a copy of both leaflets before printing them and I did not consider that in printing them I was doing anything illegal.

"I, Louis Shapiro, have given this statement voluntarily and everything contained in this statement is the truth as far as I can recall."

That was a truthful statement that you gave the police officers, was it not?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. I claim my privilege under the fifth amendment not to answer.

Mr. TAVENNER. Not to answer whether this statement which you admitted as over your signature was truthful?

(The witness conferred with his counsel).

Mr. SHAPIRO. Same answer, same grounds.

Mr. SCHERER. Who has talked to you about this statement since you gave it to the police?

Mr. SHAPIRO. No one talked to me.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. Except for my attorney.

Mr. SCHERER. Was that statement given under oath?

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir. [Reading:]

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 31st day of January 1951, George E. Kinney, Jr., notary public, New Jersey. My commission expires December 30, 1955.

Mr. SCHERER. Did you swear to that statement, Witness? (The witness conferred with his counsel)

Mr. SHAPIRO. I claim my privilege under the fifth amendment not to answer this question.

Mr. SCHERER. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to answer whether he swore to that statement.

Mr. DOYLE. I direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. SHAPIRO. I claim my privilege under the same grounds.

Mr. SCHERER. To refresh my recollection, Mr. Tavenner, didn't the witness identify that as his signature?

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHERER. I think he is bound to answer the question. You have directed him, have you not?

Mr. DOYLE. Yes, I direct the witness to answer the question. (The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SCHERER. I think the witness is definitely in contempt if he refuses to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. In view of the fact that I refused to answer any of the text of the statement mentioned, I also take my privilege under the fifth amendment to answer it.

Mr. SCHERER. Do you mean to tell us, Witness, that it would incriminate you at this time to say whether or not you swore to that affidavit or to the contents of that paper?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SCHERER. Are you telling us now that you didn't tell the truth when you signed that affidavit?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. I am refusing to answer that, Congressman, respectfully, on the ground of the fifth amendment

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. The fifth amendment was intended to protect the innocent more so than the guilty.

Mr. SCHERER. What other conclusion can we draw, when you plead the fifth amendment, saying that to answer whether or not you told the truth when you gave the statement to the police would incriminate you? We can only draw one conclusion then, can't we? If it will incriminate you to say whether or not you told the truth previously under oath, it can lead only to one conclusion, that you are afraid of committing perjury.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. I object to any such inference or conclusion.

Mr. SCHERER. You have a right to object to that inference, but I am asking whether or not any reasonable individual could come to any other conclusion.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SHAPIRO. I don't know what you are trying to prove to me, but I stand on my constitutional right of the fifth amendment not to

answer.

Mr. SCHERER. I am not trying to prove anything. I am just flabbergasted at the position you take.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Chairman, I advised counsel for this witness that I was only going to interrogate his witness about this matter. Of course, I am taken very much by surprise that the witness admits going to the police about the matter, admits the signature, and then takes the fifth amendment, because I feel that he certainly has waived any fifth amendment rights he might otherwise have had. But in light of what I said to counsel about it, I think I should not ask any further questions at this time, but I request that the witness be excused temporarily and kept under subpena, and be brought back here on Thursday.

Mr. DOYLE. At what hour?

Mr. TAVENNER. Two o'clock in the afternoon.

Mr. DOYLE. Is that agreeable, Counsel?

Mr. GREENBURG. I will have to check my schedule. I think I have another court appearance scheduled that day. May I have the right to check my schedule and see if I can rearrange any other court appearance I may have scheduled.

Mr. DOYLE. Yes, and in the meantime we will excuse the witness from the chair while you are phoning, but he will remain under subpena and you are directed to return here Thursday morning at 9:30 unless we have some other agreement with you.

Mr. SCHERER. May I make this suggestion: If counsel is engaged on Wednesday and Thursday, tomorrow morning or afternoon is all right with us.

Mr. GREENBURG. That might be better, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. SCHERER. Before we go ahead, this other witness is still here. May I ask one question?

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Shapiro. Without objection, the witness can stay right there.

Mr. SCHERER. Has anybody threatened you?

Mr. SHAPIRO. No, sir.

Mr. SCHERER. Have you been intimidated in any way?

Mr. SHAPIRO. No, sir.

Mr. SCHERER. You haven't had any delegation from the Communist Party come to your shop, have you?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SCHERER. Have they picketed your shop?

Mr. SHAPIRO. No, sir.

Mr. SCHERER. That is all.

(Whereupon the witness was temporarily excused.)

TESTIMONY OF LEWIS M. MOROZE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, THEODORE SAGER METH-Resumed

Mr. TAVENNER. In the sworn statement, Mr. Moroze, introduced in evidence as Shapiro Exhibit No. 1, reference was made to Mr. Jacob Ames, the partner of Mr. Lewis Shapiro. Do you know whether Mr. Jacob Ames was a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. MOROZE. First I would like to state that bringing in a printer here is a despicable act, tyrannical act, of this committee.

Mr. DOYLE. We are not going to permit that sort of tirade. Will you answer the question? Stand on your constitutional rights if that is what you feel you conscientiously can do.

Mr. MOROZE. I conscientiously must say this committee has no right to probe into my associations under the first amendment, and I invoke my privileges under the fifth amendment.

Mr. DOYLE. That is your privilege when you can honestly do it. Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Moroze, was the composition of the material issued by the Communist Party and which was included in Nusser Exhibit 5 issued by the Civil Rights Congress and the printing of that document, part of a preconceived plan between the Civil Rights Congress and the Communist Party to engage in propaganda activities in this community?

Mr. MOROZE. I only know one preconceived plan and that is to deny the rights of the people to petition for redress of grievances. That question is merely aimed to intimidate and destroy free press. Under the first amendment I am impelled to invoke those rights and under the fifth, my privileges.

Mr. S3HERER. People certainly have a right to protest. What happened in front of the Treat Hotel last night was giving the people a right to protest. That could only happen in America.

Mr. MOROZE. Let's make sure everyone is permitted the right to petition for redress of grievances.

Mr. SCHERER. They were given that right. It is unfortunate that most of them didn't understand the substance on the placards they were carrying.

Mr. MOROZE. I wouldn't be so arrogant of the American people in relation to them. I have deepest confidence and love and respect for the American people and they know how to invoke their rights.

Mr. SCHERER. It is intellectuals like you who are the few that control and dominate groups such as that.

Mr. MOROZE. The American people control their leaders, that is the way democracy works, and our strength is derived from the people. Mr. SCHERER. That is the way democracy works but not the way the Communist conspiracy works, which is in the opposite direction. Mr. MOROZE. I am speaking in the best interests of the American people.

Mr. TAVENNER. I hand you a document and ask you if you can identify it.

(The witness consulted with his counsel.)

Mr. MOROZE. I am impelled to answer that under the first amendment and my privileges under the fifth amendment I will make no

comment.

Mr. DOYLE. I wish to remark this: As I see it, you are not impelled to do anything. It is your privilege to plead the constitutional amendments if you conscientiously can do so, but I dislike having you say you are impelled to do it. You are privileged to do it.

Mr. MOROZE. I am impelled by this committee to defend myself because you are trying desperately to entrap me. And I am going to fight for my constitutional rights.

Mr. DOYLE. We expect you to plead constitutional privilege only when you can honestly do it.