Lieut. Col. GEORGE GRUNERT. I represent the Army here to a certain extent, as to certain principles that have been passed upon, but this has not been passed on in its entirety, or as to all the things that this bill might bring about.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been ordered here by some one in the War Department?

Lieutenant Colonel GRUNERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. By whom?

Lieutenant Colonel GRUNERT. By the Secretary of War.

Mr. VINSON. Let me make this suggestion to the chairman: The pay bill was considered and reported by a joint committee of the Naval Affairs Committee and the Military Affairs Committee, and my recollection is that some resolution was passed on the subject. That was because neither one of the committees had jurisdiction to deal with all the questions. Now, would not our bill be subject to a point of order if we undertook to include the Coast Guard, the Public Health Service, and these other activities? In all probability somebody would offer an amendment to include them. If we had no objection, and no objections were raised, they could be included. I am wondering whether we would be going beyond our jurisdiction if we were to consider including the Army and these other departments in the bill.

Mr. MILLER. Would it not be proper for somebody to raise the objection that this matter has not been laid before the Military Affairs Committee at all?

Mr. VINSON. We are merely dealing with the Navy and Marine Corps, of which we have jurisdiction, but I do not know whether we have jurisdiction to submit to the House a bill dealing with the Army, Coast and Geodetic Survey, and the Public Health Service, regardless of what the merits might be. What do you think about it, Mr Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. I think that before this committee should recommend a bill including all those services, it should have much more data before it than we now have. Perhaps the report from the Bureau of the Budget will clarify it somewhat, and show just what is contemplated.

Mr. VINSON. Is it your plan to hold the bill until a report is received from the Bureau of the Budget?

The CHAIRMAN. I think we should do that. I wish the Navy Department would compile as soon as possible, a chart showing the relative pay in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast and Geodetic Survey, Coast Guard, and Public Health Service, and the approximate cost to the Treasury of a bill that would take in all those services. I wish you would submit that to me as early as possible, so that we may have it printed for the information of the committee.

Assistant Secretary ROBINSON. When the Navy Department takes the matter up again with the Bureau of the Budget, should we indicate to them that this committee is interested in its effect upon other services besides the Navy?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. VINSON. The Army, Coast and Geodetic Survey, the Coast Guard, and the Public Health Service are the other activities involved.

Admiral CAMPBELL. I am told that the Bureau of the Budget expect to take it up to-morrow.

Assistant Secretary ROBINSON. But only from the Navy's point of view.

Admiral CAMPBELL. It is this bill that they have before them now. Assistant Secretary ROBINSON. The Bureau of the Budget is taking it up from the angle of the Navy.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee is especially anxious about this bill, but I think all the other services should be considered at the same time.

Mr. MILLER. That would bring this increase up to $2,500,000.

Mr. VINSON. If it were passed for the Navy, the other services would say that they should have the same benefits. I think it would be better to deal with it in a uniform manner.

Assistant Secretary ROBINSON. Will you hear a statement from Admiral McNamee now?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Admiral MCNAMEE. I would suggest that the committee, before taking any action, read Mr. Hale's bill and his remarks on it. His remarks were a very able presentation of the matter. As to amending the Hale bill and adding the Army, let me say this bill should not necessarily, as Mr. Hale submitted it, affect any other service except possibly the seagoing services. They might come in, but as it is now, there has been a discrimination against the Navy that has existed for six years. That applies simply to the question of sea pay, or, rather, sea duty, and not field duty as field duty for the Army in time of peace does not exist. The Army normally has no such thing as field duty, but the Navy normally does have sea duty. That means a discrimination amounting to thousands of dollars in the pay of the officers, and without any justification that anybody can see. I think Mr. Hale saw that very clearly, and I am sorry he is not here to-day. It amounts to as much as $1,800 difference in the pay of a lieutenant Commander.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the base pay of a lieutenant commander? Admiral LEIGH. The pay bill is based on length of service. It is ngevity pay. A lieutenant commander's base pay would vary from $2,400 to $5,250.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be about $4,600 a year?

Admiral MCNAMEE. A lieutenant commander, with dependents, Would receive $4,158 as total compensation.

Admiral LEIGH. The base pay of a lieutenant commander can go slow as $2,400, and as high as $5,250. That is the base pay without any allowances. The range is from $2,400 to $5,250 for a lieutenant Commander.

The CHAIRMAN. What of the allowances?

Admiral LEIGH. The allowances are $438 for subsistence, and $960, with dependents, for rental allowance.

The CHAIRMAN. What other allowances does he have?

Admiral LEIGH. That is all-subsistence and rental.

The CHAIRMAN. So he can get $6,100 a year. What is the average age of a lieutenant commander receiving $6,000 a year?

Admiral LEIGH. A lieutenant commander may be about 35 for the youngest.

The CHAIRMAN. He would receive $6,000?

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Admiral LEIGH. No, sir; his total, with dependents, would b $4,158. The maximum that he could get with dependents would b $6,997.

The CHAIRMAN. At approximately 34 years of age.

Admiral LEIGH. No, sir; in that grade of higher pay he would b about 48 years old, I should say, anyway. He might be much olde

than 40.

Assistant Secretary ROBINSON. Flight pay and submarine pa would be still higher.

Mr. VINSON. In view of the fact that the author of the bill is no with us this morning, he being unavoidably absent, would it not b • proper to let this matter stand over until Mr. Hale returns?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; by that time we will probably have the re port of the Bureau of the Budget.

Mr. ANDREW. Will it have any real application to the Publi Health Service and the Coast and Geodetic Survey?

Admiral MCNAMEE. The only possible place it could apply woul be to sea duty. If they went to sea, it would apply. Mr. ANDREW. Do they go to sea?

Admiral MCNAMEE. A few of the Public Health Service go to se on Coast Guard vessels. The Coast and Geodetic Survey and th Coast Guard, of course, go to sea. There would be some applica

tion there.

Mr. ANDREW. Do you call it sea duty for the Coast and Geodeti Survey when they are surveying harbors?

Admiral MCNAMEE. I imagine it would be when they are removed from their homes and live on vessels.

Mr. GAMBRILL. This bill introduced by Mr. Hale is intended to correct an inequality existing in the pay act of 1922, is it not? Admiral LEIGH. Yes, sir; one of the inequalities.

Mr. GAMBRILL. Would it not be a simpler form to proceed with the amendment of that act, rather than by an independent act inasmuch as this bill was introduced to correct inequalities in the pay act of 1922?

Admiral LEIGH. I had not thought of that. When you go into all of the inequalities this question of longevity is one of them, & wrong principle in pay anyway.

Mr. VINSON. I suggest that we let this bill rest in abeyance for the present.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; until the department furnishes us with additional information and those charts I have requested. I would like to have those charts completely drawn showing the difference that this legislation would make, not only in the naval service but in the other services that were affected by the pay bill of 1922.

NAVY DEPARTMENT, Washington, December 27, 1928.

The CHAIRMAN COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS,

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: In compliance with the desire of the Committee on Naval Affairs, as expressed by you in the hearings on the bill H. R. 13614 on December 10, there is inclosed herewith certain charts.

These charts consist of the following:

(a) Chart showing number of officers affected and cost to all services covered by the joint service pay act of

(1) The grant, to officers without dependents on sea and field duty, of the allowances now made to officers of the same rank and length of service with dependents.

The grant to all officers without dependents, irrespective of location of duty, the allowances now made to officers with dependents.

Chart showing the rates of pay of officers of the Navy of the several grades lengths of service now existing in the officer list of the Navy.

e) Six charts showing statutory rates of pay in each corresponding grade in all vices, throughout the entire range of 0 to 30 and more years of service. In

se charts the cross-hatched areas show the difference now existing between the of officers on sea or field duty, without dependents and officers on such duty dependents.

Composite chart showing statutory rates of pay for all grades and for all ths of service in all services.

It is requested that the committee return the charts when they have served purpose.

Sincerely yours,

CURTIS D. WILBUR,
Secretary of the Navy.

Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow, Tuesday, December 11, 1928, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.).

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