Mr. HALE. I was under the impression that we always inserted the words "by purchase or condemnation". Admiral GREGORY. I do not think it is necessary to insert them, although sometimes it is done. The CHAIRMAN. Unless some other gentleman of the committee desires to further question Admiral McNamee or Admiral Gregory, I think the committee understands this situation pretty thoroughly, and we might proceed to the next bill. We thank you, Admiral McNamee and Admiral Gregory, for coming before the committee. (Thereupon, the committee proceeded to the consideration of other business.) HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS, The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. Fred A. Britten. (chairman) presiding. RIFLE RANGE NEAR PUGET SOUND NAVY YARD STATEMENTS OF REAR ADMIRAL L. E. GREGORY, CHIEF, BUREAU OF YARDS AND DOCKS, AND REAR ADMIRAL LUKE MCNAMEE, DIRECTOR OF FLEET TRAINING The CHAIRMAN. A quorum of the committee is present and we will hear Admiral Gregory and Admiral McNamee further with reference to the proposed rifle range in the vicinity of the Puget Sound Navy Yard. Admiral Gregory, will you tell us, in a general way, what objections you think the Navy Department would have to amending the bill in the way suggested by Mr. Vinson yesterday, so as to limit it not only as to the acreage but also as to the amount to be expended for improvements? Admiral GREGORY. I do not know that the department would have any objection to it, but I would like to say this, that, in the absence of a survey of the territory under consideration, the department is not in a position at the present time to say exactly how much land would be required. The information that we now have has come from the commandant of the navy yard, and he has presented a plan covering an area 4 miles in length, and 2 miles in width, concerning which we have only the most meager information. as to topography. Mr. VINSON. What are the dimensions? Admiral GREGORY. Four miles in length and 2 miles in width. Mr. VINSON. How many acres would that include? There are 640 acres to the square mile. Admiral GREGORY. I said that it would include 5,120 acres. Mr. VINSON. If it were 2 miles in length, it would be 1,280 acres. Admiral GREGORY. I consider it unlikely that we would need the whole of that area, because there would appear to be a much bigger space than would be required. The amount of land required for the range would depend very largely upon the topography itself. I think, therefore, that to establish a limit of cost, either as to the acreage land, or as to the cost of the land, until those facts could be ascertained, would not be putting us in a position where we could work to advantage. Furthermore, on the question of buildings, doubtless the principal buildings that we would want to ask for would cost not over $5,000; but we will have to install, as a part of this installation, telephone booths, and in the event somebody should construe these telephone booths to be buildings, then we might have to exceed the $5,000. I think that the bill, as originally prepared, which does not go into details, would really be of much greater advantage to the department in being able to adapt ourselves to the conditions as we will ascertain them to be after a survey and further examination. It is probable that not more than half of this area would be required, but I think it better not to have a limitation except as to the total amount for the whole proposition. Of course, the hearings would show the necessity for using it for the purchase of ground and the construction of improvements. As I have said, that acreage would probably be considered to be ample. Mr. VINSON. Do you refer to hearings before the Appropriations Committee? Admiral GREGORY. No, sir; to the hearings here. Mr. VINSON. These hearings are vague. We are up against this proposition, that the Budget is against us, and when we go upon the floor with the Budget against us, and with the vague information from the commandant of the navy yard that we will need possibly 5,100 acres, while you are saying that we would probably need only 2,500 acres, we will have difficulty. The House will say, "What do you want out there?" We can only say that we want this $85,000. You would probably need all of the $85,000 to buy the land. I want to help to get the bill through, but if you proceed on that line, you will get into trouble. For that reason, I would rather limit the acreage, if you do not limit the amount of money. The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mr. Vinson, that you are crossing a bridge there before you come to it, because the commandant out there has not stated how many acres they need, nor has Admiral Gregory indicated how many acres they would need. The admiral has stated, from his own viewpoint, that they probably would need not more than one-half of these 5,000 acres. Nothing has been said to the committee that indicated that we will require as much as 5,000 acres. Mr. VINSON. I was under the impression that he stated that the commandant of the yard's survey showed that it must be 2 miles wide and 4 miles long. Admiral GREGORY. That shows a map of the property in this area. That is presented for study, and there is included in that area 5,120 acres. Now, then, within that area, we want to develop a range, but how much of it we want, we can not say definitely at the present time. Mr. MILLER. How much would it be practicable to use as a firing field? Admiral GREGORY. The impression now is that the actual firing field should be about one and a quarter miles in length and half a mile in width. Those are approximate figures, and I would not want it understood that we should be held down to that. That is the approximate amount. Mr. MILLER. I have seen a good many target ranges for the Army, and I have never seen a target 1ange as large as this con templated range. There is the range at Fort Lewis, that the Navy has been using, for instance. A tract of land 1 mile wide and 2 miles long, containing 1,280 acres, would give you a firing range of approximately 3,000 yards, would it not, or very nearly that? Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir. Mr. MILLER. Now, do you know of any target range, either for the Army or the Navy, that has a firing range of 3,000 yards? Admiral GREGORY. They have none of that length. Mr. MILLER. I have never heard of any such range. Of course, what we are after here is a target range, and I am afraid if we start out on the basis of acquiring 5,000 acres of land, and then undertake to clear a field a mile and a half long and half a mile wide, we would have difficulty. Clearing land for a target range in that country would be an expensive job, and I must say that you will be running into an amount of money that would be considerable, taking that together with the buildings, sanitary arrangements, keepers' quarters, shelters, storage for small arms, and other things that are essential. It would also be necessary to provide facilities for carrying these large bodies of men to and from the target range. How many men do you think would be taken on the firing range at one time? Admiral GREGORY. I think Admiral McNamee testified yesterday that the probability was there would be a company of not over 200 men at a time. Mr. MILLER. How would you divide those 200 men? Would you divide them into squads? Admiral GREGORY. I would like for you to get the details of that from some others who are more familiar with it. Mr. MILLER. You would establish a safety zone there by means of the standing timber around that firing field? Admiral GREGORY. That is contemplated. Mr. MILLER. That would be a safety proposition. Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir. Mr. MILLER. There are not many people living in that immediate vicinity, I believe. Admiral GREGORY. I do not know of anybody living there. There may be a very few, but that is an almost entirely unpopulated section at the present time. Mr. MILLER. Do you think, from your knowledge of the country there, that this land could be purchased for $10 per acre? Admiral GREGORY. This land has second growth timber on it. Nearly all the merchantable timber has been cut off from that particular area, and, therefore, the land does not have very great value. With regard to the point you mentioned a minute ago, about the cost of clearing, one reason why this estimate now is low is that the Bermerton Gun Club has cleared a very considerable portion of this area, which the Navy would use, and that part of the land is now ready without the necessity of further clearing. Furthermore, clearing can be accomplished easily if it is combined with the sale of the timber. Now, with reference to that other thought, about the area of rifle ranges, etc., the longest course of firing on a fixed range, I think, is 1,000 yards; but this range would, in all probability, or, in fact, it would certainly, be used, not only by the enlisted men of the Navy, but, also, it would be used by the marines. In the Marine Corps work, they have what they call skirmish firing, which calls for a great deal longer tract, and that is why I said we would probably develop a range one and a quarter miles in length. That would permit of skirmish work by the marines, as well as of firing from fixed positions at fixed targets. I hope I have made that clear. You probably have seen that kind of work down at Quantico. Mr. VINSON. Mr. Miller, you are the author of this bill, and I want to ask you whether, with the facts that we have, you are satisfied with the bill, just as it is? Mr. MILLER. Yes; I am satisfied with it. Mr. VINSON. Is the department satisfied that the facts submitted to us would justify this authorization, regardless of the views of the Bureau of the Budget? Admiral GREGORY. The department, of course, is not in a position to advocate the bill because of the Budget's report that it is in conflict with the financial policy of the President. Mr. MILLER. Admiral McNamee, will you give the committee something of a bird's-eye view of a navy target range, indicating the length and width of the firing field, the number of men who would be at the field at one time for the purpose of engaging in target practice, and, generally, what a navy rifle range should consist of? Admiral MCNAMEE. The only real Navy rifle range we have that is capable of accommodating the fleet is the one at Guantanamo. Of course, that consists of three or four different ranges, and the country is practically uninhabited. That range, therefore, is somewhat different from what you would expect to find at any other place. At the range at Camp Lewis, you fire over the water, so it does not need any great distance back of the target range, as in a flat country where people live. I am not sufficiently familiar with the country around Puget Sound to know just what there is the way of a back stop, but any survey for the laying out of a target range would certainly have that in view. If you could get some high ground for a back stop you could cut down the total length of the range very much. The urgency of having some place at which to fire is so great that I think we should start and find some place for shooting in the vicinity of the Puget Sound Navy Yard, even if it were only the taking over of this Bremerton Gun Club range. I think the Bremerton Gun Club range would serve, if we had sufficient land back of it. What I would like to see would be a strip three miles long and one mile wide. If we could get a suitable back stop, then, with a range a mile wide and two miles long, or if we could find such an area in that vicinity, so that there would be no danger of high shots hurting anybody, it would answer the purpose. Mr. MILLER. You are reasonably familiar with what would be the reasonable dimensions of a target range? Admiral MCNAMEE. Yes, sir. Mr. MILLER. How wide and how long do you think the cleared field should be to adequately meet the conditions there so as to provide proper training facilities? I think Admiral Gregory indicated that it should be something like half a mile wide. Admiral MCNAMEE. We could get along with that, or with anything if necessary. This whole Navy target practice is a catch-ascatch-can proposition. They go ashore and shoot anywhere they can. 2197-29-No. 100- -2 Mr. HOUSTON. Is it not a fact that a proper naval range, such as we have down at Guantanamo, has provision made for field-gun firing? Admiral McNAMEE. Yes, sir. Mr. HOUSTON. That, of course, requires a great deal longer distance. Admiral MCNAMEE. We should have 3,000 yards for that. Admiral MCNAMEE (interposing). Yes; for machine-gun firing. If necessary, we could fire the machine guns somewhere else. Mr. MILLER. As the bill is worded, it calls for a rifle range. That is a descriptive term. Would 3-inch guns come under that term of "rifle"? Mr. HOUSTON. Yes; they would need to utilize the rifle range for that, because this naval rifle range practice carries with it the utilization of field pieces. There is no other way by which it can be done. It must be done on shore because this is a landing force proposition. Mr. MILLER. At Camp Lewis, where the Navy has had small-arms target practice, going over from the Puget Sound Navy Yard, there are about 60,000 acres of land. There they can deploy and use 3-inch guns, but I hardly think that you would get enough cleared land at this place, with an appropriation of $85,000, to provide a range for practice with 3-inch guns. Admiral MCNAMEE. I agree with that. I think we would have to. find some other place for the 3-inch guns. Possibly we could find a place for that and for the firing of the machine guns. Mr. VINSON. Can you conceive of any fact that would justify you, as the officer in charge of this training for the fleet, or any other officer in any bureau of the Navy, in coming before this committee or the Appropriations Committee, and asking for additional money for the completion of this rifle range? Admiral MCNAMEE. Well, my idea would be that the $85,000 would provide the range. We could acquire the range for that. It would not be the finest range in the world, but it could be used and would satisfy the present needs. Then, if you wanted a better range, a larger range, or a more perfect range, the department would, perhaps, need more money for more facilities; but, as I have said, that would satisfy the present need in my opinion. Mr. VINSON. That is, it would be sufficient to meet the needs of the fleet, as long as the fleet remains at practically what it is to-day. Admiral MCNAMEE. I would not like to be a prophet with regard to the future extension of the fleet or Navy. Mr. VINSON. We are not extending it in the matter of battleships, and that is what you are particularly concerned with up there. The bulk of the men taking this target practice would come from the battleships berthed at the Puget Sound Navy Yard. Now, can you conceive of any facts that would justify Admiral Gregory, for instance, in coming here a year or two years from now and asking more money for this rifle range? Admiral MCNAMEE. My opinion is this, that the Navy Department has always been liberal in the matter of appropriations for matériel, but it is men that fight the battles, and when it comes to the question of training men I think that is the poorest place in the world to economize. I am not going to say what would be asked next year, |