General CARROLL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. HARDY. So now I presume, then, that there will be a considerable transfer or assignment from the individual services to DIA of people to perform these functions in DIA?

General CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Now, if, then, that is accompanied by a reduction in the total requirements of the three services, I presume we may have some reduction in requirement for officer personnel.

General CARROLL. Reduction in requirement for officer personnel? Mr. HARDY. In the three services, yes.

General CARROLL. It is the three services, Mr. Chairman, who supply the officer personnel to man the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Mr. HARDY. It won't take as many to man the Defense Intelligence Agency as the three services have been using in their separate conduct of this function.

General CARROLL. Initially, yes, sir. And subsequent assign

ments

Mr. HARDY. Then you are not going to gain any efficiency, then, that Mr. McNamara has been talking about.

You haven't accomplished anything in the world, from the standpoint of increasing efficiency, if you are going to absorb all of the personnel, and maybe more, than the services had themselves.

General CARROLL. I am not too sure I follow you on that, sir. We are not absorbing all of the personnel in the services.

Mr. HARDY. If you don't absorb all of the personnel that have been performing these functions in the individual services, then there is going to be some officer billets.

General CARROLL. Yes, sir. In our plan we are identifying the resources that are presently associated with the performance of functions which have been assigned to the Defense Intelligence Agency. And to the extent that our planning dictates to us at this stage of the game what our requirements will be in balanced relationship to the resources presently utilized, we identify those in our plans and then submit them to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretary for consideration, and such approval as they see fit to give it.

I might mention in this respect, in relationship to the objectives with which I started off this briefing, our primary objective is one of unifying and strengthening the overall intelligence effort of the Department of Defense, with a view toward improving in the areas of production, collection, and dissemination.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, that considering the turbulent world in which we live and the fact that one crisis after another is developing in various areas in the world, that it can well be anticipated that there would be an increased demand for more timely and more perceptive intelligence information. We are experiencing such a situation. My objective now

Mr. HARDY. I think we all applaud that, General. I think we all recognize that that situation may require the world situation may require a reorientation of our whole program and certainly improvements to keep track of the requirements of the day.

But that is a little bit different from the point that I was trying to explore with you.

General CARROLL. Yes. I understand that, Mr. Chairman. I didn't mean to digress. What I was leading up to

Mr. HARDY. That is a tactic that we have become used to. Maybe you didn't mean it, but I think maybe you folks in the military have been so accustomed to using that. And every now and then you get away with it. We don't catch on.

General CARROLL. I honestly didn't consider this a digression.

What I was leading up to, Mr. Chairman, was that one of the primary injunctions which we have received from both the Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff is that in the integrating of functions which are assigned to us, that we should under no circumstances permit any degradation in the level of present intelligence effort.

Mr. HARDY. Well, I would assume that being the good managers that you are, you wouldn't permit that anyhow.

General CARROLL. That is correct, Mr. Chairman, I hope.

What I wanted to state is that what we are endeavoring to do is to integrate these various functions which have been assigned to us. Having done that, we then want to apply the managerial techniques which consolidation will permit.

Mr. HARDY. Well, that is what I have been trying to explore. I was trying to explore the side issue. Of course, the main issue is improve

ment.

General CARROLL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. HARDY. But I was trying to explore the side issue and see what is going to happen from the standpoint of personnel and cost. General CARROLL. I would not

Mr. HARDY. Mr. McNamara made a great point of the savings that he is going to accomplish.

General CARROLL. Yes. I would not describe this as a side issue, Mr. Chairman. It is also a primary objective. It is merely one which within a time frame is of lesser priority.

Mr. BATES. Let's take a look at the coconut a little closer.
General CARROLL. I beg your pardon, sir?

Mr. BATES. I say, let's take a look at the coconut a little closer. When this organization was established, the determination made to establish the organization was before your time.

General CARROLL. That is right, sir.

Mr. BATES. But, nevertheless, as they made that evaluation they came up with certain decisions which prompted the conclusion they reached.

General CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. They were going to do certain things that could not be accomplished in the old framework.

General CARROLL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATES. Now, as the chairman indicated, the Secretary was talk ing about all the money and all the savings we are going to make, speaking generally about all of these institutions.

Is it your contention, then, that no money will be saved

General CARROLL. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. BATES. Is it your contention there will be?

General CARROLL. It is my belief that there will be substantial savings, both dollarwise and manpowerwise. Now, whether those sav

ings will be reflected in eliminating these resources from the overall intelligence effort of the Department or in a realinement to permit a more effective utilization of them responsive to continuing increasing intelligence needs, at this time I am not prepared to state.

Mr. BATES. Well, let's take just a little look at the administrative aspects of this at the present time.

I notice the item of training. Now you have your schools for training, I presume, and the individual services, I believe, had their schools for training; is that correct?

General CARROLL. That is right, sir.

Mr. BATES. Now let's take a look at that. How many people do you have in your school now for training?

General CARROLL. In the DIA school?

Mr. BATES. Yes.

General CARROLL. We do not have a school at the moment, sir. I did intend to address myself to this later.

Mr. BATES. Are you going

General CARROLL. The subject of training was considered at considerable length

Mr. BATES. Yes.

General CARROLL. In the Department of Defense, and particularly in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Certain changed assignments of responsibilities have occurred.

The Defense Intelligence Agency has been assigned the responsibility of integrating a certain portion of overall intelligence education and training.

Here in the Washington area, the Navy conducts a postgraduate intelligence school at Anacostia.

The Army conducts the Strategic Intelligence School, at which orientation for senior staff officers is given, and more particularly at which Army and Air Force attachés are trained. The Navy trains its attachés in conjunction with its own postgraduate school.

Since both of these appear to pertain to areas of training or educational requirements which were common to all three of the services, these were assigned to DIA for establishment and direction.

The Navy will be responsible for the logistic support of the school. The Army, on the other hand, has been given full Department of Defense responsibility for all language training.

At the present moment the Navy runs a language training school, the Army runs a language training school, and the Air Force has been handling most of its language requirements through contract to civilian institutions.

Mr. BLANDFORD. You mean they are finally going to use Monterey! General CARROLL. That is correct.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Finally the Air Force agreed to use Monterey? General CARROLL. I beg your pardon?

Mr. BLANDFORD. And the Air Force has finally agreed to use Monterev?

General CARROLL. The Department of the Army has been given the responsibility of establishing the language school, and I am sure that subsequent to approval by the Secretary of Defense that the respective services will use whatever facilities are established.

Mr. HARDY. And the only thing they will have an opportunity to do will be to comment?

General CARROLL. I beg your pardon?

Mr. HARDY. The only opportunity that the Air Force would have would be to comment? [Laughter.]

Mr. BATES. Let's take a look at those, now.

Where do we stand

now with respect to the Army school and Navy school?

General CARROLL. All of these assignments are quite recent, Mr. Congressman. And they are all at the present moment in the planning stages.

So far as the Defense Intelligence Agency is concerned, we contemplate finalizing plans for submission by the end of this month.

Mr. BATES. The end of this month. So your decisions are pretty well made and your planning pretty well established at this point? General CARROLL. It is progressing. We are working it out with the services so that whatever is accomplished can be done with a minimum of disruption, and particularly so that we might have worked out details to permit starting a school as soon as possible.

Mr. BATES. Now, do you intend to have more people in these schools as instructors, etc., than are presently in them, or not?

General CARROLL. Not at the present time; no, sir. What we are doing is addressing ourselves to the faculty-type resources which are presently available in both schools and proposing to integrate-perhaps realine-but to integrate in performance of the broader function which has now been assigned to us.

Mr. BATES. For instance, let's take the Army. Has the Army been requested to send more people into the school assignment than they have previously?

General CARROLL. Not yet, sir, because we haven't gotten to that point in the development of the plans.

Mr. BATES. Has the Navy?

General CARROLL. Well, none of them have, because at the present moment these schools are still being conducted under the direction of the respective services.

Mr. BATES. Yes; but, General, now, we are talking about at the end of the month that this transfer will be made; is that correct?

General CARROLL. No. The plans-we would have plans submitted for consideration by the end of this month.

Mr. BATES. By the end of the month.

General CARROLL. And

Mr. BATES. So you know pretty well at this time just where you are, don't you?

Have you made any demands upon the individual services?
General CARROLL. None yet, sir.

Mr. BATES. None?

General CARROLL. With one exception, in relationship to the possibility of our getting this school going at the next academic year.

First, we would have since the Navy in connection with this postgraduate school had already earmarked personnel to go, we merelywe have asked the Army and the Air Force to anticipate a possible requirement for about 15 personnel who might be assigned as students to this particular school. But we are not able at this time to apportion to them an equal number along with the Navy, since the Navy already has commitments which are more substantial.

Mr. BATES. The Navy commitments are more substantial.

Will the Navy have more people assigned to this school than they have presently?

General CARROLL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. BATES. Is that the way you understand it, Admiral?

Admiral FRANKEL. That is right, sir; yes.

Mr. BATES. It is not true, then, that the Navy will have more people assigned to this school than presently? No request has been made for that?

Admiral FRANKEL. No request has been made for that.

General QUINN. I think in answer to your question, I might say that the input into this consolidated school is going to follow a general pattern based on past requirements. We don't see a tremendous surge of students here.

There are requirements for all services from the

Mr. BATES. I am just talking, General, about the administration of it.

General QUINN. The

Mr. BATES. The administration of the schools.

General QUINN. The backup-logistics, and so forth.

Mr. BATES. Whether or not the Navy is going to have more people assigned to this school than they have presently. That is the question. General CARROLL. The Navy, Mr. Bates-maybe what you are referring to, in all probability-though I really don't know-is that they might have to put more personnel resources in support of this new school than they are presently putting into the support of the present school.

Mr. BATES. As a matter of fact, haven't the Navy been requested to put 20 more people into this school than they presently have in them?

Admiral FRANKEL. Are you talking about students or

administration?

Mr. BATES. Administration.

Admiral FRANKEL. I was talking about students. I am sorry.

Mr. BATES. I was very clear on administration. Is my statement correct or incorrect?

Admiral FRANKEL. We have had no approach from the Navy on this subject at all.

Mr. BATES. Sir?

Admiral FRANKEL. There has been no approach from the Navy to DIA on this subject at all.

Mr. BATES. Even though you are that far along in your plans?
Admiral FRANKEL. The plan has not yet-

General CARROLL. We haven't staffed the plan yet. And the requirements that are associated with the plan would be approved at the time the plan is staffed and approved.

Now, in the development of the plans at the working level, considerations may have been given as to what these requirements are ultimately going to be.

I did mention, Mr. Congressman, that the Navy has been given the responsibility for logistic support of the new school. And it is entirely probable that this support responsibility, since it is enlarged