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billion if we were to sum all their programs, and 40,000 people, to be sure you really got that-and I don't know what you mean by getting it when we are talking about people as much as things. I Just don't see that the mental image I have of that is very much like an occupation. So I don't have any confidence that you can get there by the inspection route.

Mr. SPERTZEL. And what happens if inspectors are there, ostensibly unlimited access, if they come along on a particularly sensitive site and so there is another standon? What is going to happen? What is the next step? Are we going to have a week-long debate among the permanent five members, and then two of them will abstain and the third one will make some modifications to the resolution to the point that it is not much better than distilled water? What have you accomplished?

Dr. KAY. Very often when you get those standoffs, as Dick knows, you are at a point where you are asked the same questions you ask us. "What is the evidence that that is an important place?” And because they are trying to conceal from you and mislead you-and let me give you, Mr. Rodriguez, an actual example that occurred to me. The second inspection I took in. we had a supposed defector who came in and said they had buried nuclear materials in the central Baghdad cemetery. Now, you know, I am from Texas. I am willing to do a lot of things. Digging up cemeteries is one of those things that I have got to have a lot of evidence on. It was, we later found out, and penetrated-thank goodness I had a little bit of my mother's common sense and didn't carry out an inspection. It was a provocation they ran against the team. hoping we would dig up the central Baghdad cemetery, hunting for something that wasn't there, but would have meant great television footage not in favor of us. It was referred to as a cat-and-mouse game. I have never liked that term because when you are the mouse it is not much fun. The cat has a lot more fun, and the inspectors were the mouse. We are talking about disputes when we are going to be asked the same questions about evidence. There may in fact be nothing there, because they have carried out a successful provocation. As long as that government is not willing to give up its weapons of mass destruction program, it just is not credible that inspectors, by themselves, will be able to do that against their determined opponent. If Saddam changes his spots and becomes an enlightened leader of the Middle East

Mr. SPERTZEL. On another occasion, one of the things that didn't make the headlines was a team was stopped only for a few hours, and they sat there and they watched with binoculars two little fires on the roof of the building, which turned out to be an asphalt roof. And when they, Iraq, was asked about those fires, "oh, the janitor was just burning the trash for the day." Yeah, right. We all go around doing that on asphalt roofs.

Now, I have no idea what was in those documents that they burned, but I sure wish I did. And, that is what inspection teams are faced with when there is not a desire on the part of the country and when you cannot rely on having any backup.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Let me-I just want to go throw it back to the analogy, Dr. Kay, that you mentioned. If you had been-that you were a 90-pound weakling and you needed support.

Dr. KAY. Ninety-four pounds.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. You know, that concerns me. And if you are a pretty healthy individual, does that mean that we should act like a big bully and not reach out?

Dr. KAY. No, it means we should I mean, my interpretation is I still believe in getting as many friends to go to a fight as I can, if I have to fight. But, I also believe in not bringing a knife to a knife fight. I like odds that are in my favor and not against.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yeah. One of the struggles that we are having is that you are extremely knowledgeable, but a lot of us are not there yet in terms of deciding whether our sons and daughters should risk their lives, you know, despite the fact that-say that they do have, you know, what they-you know, in terms of working on nuclear and all the other stuff, despite that, you know, whether we should go to the extreme, despite the fact that we are also in a war right now with a terrorist which I see also very differently, although Iraq cannot be seen in isolation from what is happening in the Middle East.

And my sincere concerns are that as a country we have been negligent and not fully engaged in the Middle East; that we have been negligent in terms of comments in reference to Taiwan and China; that we have been negligent in our comments regarding Korea; and that some of that has been deliberate, and that this is part of all that process. And if it is, it is a game that we shouldn't be playing because it is a serious situation. And if we do want peace, we have to be directly engaged in, directly involved, and to send Colin Powell for a weekend down there doesn't cut it.

And so I am real concerned with our foreign policy in terms of the way it has been operating. And for us to bring this forward, it also brings to question, is this dialogue just prior to the November election and then are we going to see it again prior to the 2004 election?

Dr. KAY. Fortunately that is in your field, not mine, and you have those responsibilities. I think both of us understand the awesome nature of those-and I wish we could share with you in a more effective way our experience. I think that is one of the limitations of the way we have communicated the results of the inspection. I can tell you, you know, that occurs even among inspectors. We both served as chief inspectors and had teams that we took in and led. And I know Dick had the same experience I had. I took people in who didn't believe the Iraqi program was as bad as they had been told before they went in as inspectors, and came out much more rabid than I am. I had one who was a-well, this was a period when the Soviet Union still existed during the brief early days of inspection-who came out absolutely convinced, because he saw what we saw.

Our failure is our ability to communicate the depth of their deception, denial, clandestine nature, concealment nature of their program and the evil around the regime. And I know, failing to communicate that, we leave men and women like you with an awesome responsibility, and not much help we can provide. I accept it as a failing on my part.

ou for testifying before us and tark nank you for the work for our country.

The gentleman. And it is clear, that despite ting for reelection, Doctor Kay and Doeppreciate your candid remarks today.

Mr. Chairman. I think I am the only Memwho flew against the Iraqis in 2000. What we upgraded Iraqi defense. And in 1998, when cainst them, we saw a very limited ability to And by the time I was up against them in Kad ead all over our altitude, new surface-to-air mel shed, we said Iraq was back. We could et at our altitudes.

e intelligence community for quite a while. I we had missed the target so badly. You describe we didn't know about, a $10 billion program and Operation Desert Storm. It sort of describes to me Sabor in which the intelligence community simply ume that if we can miss 40,000 employees, dies, we could miss 40 kilograms of fissile ma

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Mr. KIRK. You talked about these states being small states and not being able to hang together with casualties of that nature. It would seem that Israel could be one of those states that wouldn't hang together, suffering.

Dr. KAY. Actually, I would have more confidence that Israel would hang together, at least for longer than I would other states in the region which, trying to be a diplomat, maybe I won't name. Mr. KIRK. Has Scott Ritter gone crazy?

Dr. KAY. Fortunately, I avoided psychology as a profession. You know, I have given you the only explanation that you have got to think about. Either he lied to you or he is lying now. I don't know which. I don't know why.

Mr. KIRK. He told CNN that the Iraqis were not involved in a weapons of mass destruction program and had no intention. And yet the Iraqis in July of 1995 said that they had produced 19,000 liters of botulism, 84,000 liters of anthrax, 2,000 liters of aflatoxin, clostridium and ricin, had built 166 biological bombs, 25 missile warheads, and had 86 declared biological sites. But according to Mr. Ritter, that is not being involved in a weapons of mass destruction program.

Dr. KAY. That is true, and he has become an expert on nuclear, too. He is, you know, he is-I am as puzzled and upset as you are, Mr. Kirk.

Mr. KIRK. Now we have managed to-you managed to help dismantle one biological site at Al Hakam, right? But the inspections, I am told, officially ended in 1997 really.

Dr. SPERTZEL. Effectively. Inspectors were still there to December of 1998, but effectively, we were marching to Iraq's tune from October of 1997 onward.

Mr. KIRK. We have had four years without inspections. I understand we have information that a defector from the Mutana state enterprise says there are several mobile factories

Mr. HUNTER. Will the gentleman suspend?

Mr. KIRK. Yes.

Mr. HUNTER. We may have some classified areas that the gentleman is moving into.

Mr. KIRK. This is in the New York Times material that the committee gave me.

Dr. SPERTZEL. Let me comment on it.

Mr. HUNTER. Gentlemen, we just had a classified briefing in which some of that information has been discussed. If the gentleman wants to quote a

Mr. KIRK. I am quoting directly from the New York Times article that the committee staff gave us. According to the New York Times-and what I am exclusively using is the New York Timesthat we have mobile nerve gas factories, microtoxin, bacterial toxin, and an anticrop toxin. In your estimation, would that be available? Dr. SPERTZEL. Yeah. I am not sure why they would have selected some of those agents. But the first-we actually had, in perhaps a weak moment by General Omar Asadi, when we were pressing him as to when Iraq-when Al Hakam was conceived, and he said that there was a delay because he first asked the bio group to consider mobile laboratories. We also know that Iraq actually imported a couple fully functional mobile labs. I don't know what was inside

them in the mid-eighties. I think it was 1988, 1987, or 1988. Iraq was using mobile-filling laboratories, if you would like, or mobile, mounted on vans, for filling chemical agents.

Mr. KIRK. And a mobile lab would be harder to find.

Dr. SPERTZEL. A mobile lab would be extremely hard to find.

Mr. KIRK. Well, I have worked with Doctor Christine Gosden, leading scientist in Britain, which is probably why Prime Minister Blair is so adamant on this. She documents 250 uses of chemical and biological weapons by Saddam Hussein. Is that about your understanding?

Dr. SPERTZEL. That is-we would be comfortable, yes.

Mr. KIRK. And my colleague talked about how he does not have a weapon capable of reaching the Continental United States. But in your estimation, does he have a weapon able to reach the thousands of Americans stationed at Prince Sultan Air Base, Incirlik Air Base, or any Israeli city?

Dr. SPERTZEL. No. I don't think there is any question about that. The inside on the bases that are to the south, southeast of Iraq, because of the prevailing wind conditions, an airplane flying inside the Iraqi border, low altitude, releasing the biological agent, could have a devastating effect as far south as Yemen or Oman.

Mr. KIRK. Which would include the American personnel at Prince Sultan Air Base.

Dr. SPERTZEL. Absolutely. And that is with equipment that they have now. They produced them. They successfully tested it in 1988. They turned over to us the earlier version, the developmental model, but not the final one that was tested.

Mr. KIRK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HUNTER. Appreciate the gentleman's comments. Ms. Tauscher.

Mrs. TAUSCHER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Kay, Dr. Spertzel, thank you for your hard work. After the U.N. passed Resolution 687, you had a lot of success for a number of years.

Dr. KAY. And a lot of frustration. Yes, both.

Mrs. TAUSCHER. And a lot of frustration. But somewhere toward the middle of the nineties, Iraq's appeasers on the Security Council-China, Russia, and France-began to dissemble the resolution and effectively nullified all of the hard work that you did by putting up every barrier and obstacle that you could find. And nothing has really changed, has it, except that the President is going to the United Nations on Thursday. And obviously, in the context of the post-September 11 environment, what I find fascinating, and what I hope the President will talk about is that the President was very clear on the evening of September 11 and certainly on the day of September 12 about the definition of being an ally of the United States and on being on the side of good and evil. And I think, that he has got to put specifically the Security Council members-Russia, China and France their feet to the fire and ask them how they can honestly expect us, one year after this terrible tragedy, as they continue to appease and continue to allow Saddam Hussein to do clearly what everyone recognizes that he does nobody is going to nomin him to

n for a Nobel Peace Prize, nobody is going to invite country club, no one says he is a good guy, every

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